I still say Dark Magic is physical.

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    PlasticandRage
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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:55 pm

    Yeah, my original testing partner can't do it. We don't have any compatible toons for this specific test. I have an SL115 with GMB, and an SL115 with base STR, 45ish INT, and all the Dark Magics. If anybody is willing to do some tests and has toons that would work with either of those.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:19 pm

    Don't forget about the MLGS. It adds magic defense only (at an exact amount) without adding any other defense. And the stoneplate ring does the same thing. Use combinations of these with GMB to get a better understanding of the magic component.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by lordgodofhell on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:33 pm

    Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by ChizFreak on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:46 pm

    PlasticandRage wrote:Yeah, my original testing partner can't do it. We don't have any compatible toons for this specific test. I have an SL115 with GMB, and an SL115 with base STR, 45ish INT, and all the Dark Magics. If anybody is willing to do some tests and has toons that would work with either of those.

    I could help you, I have my Leeroy build has 40 FTH, and all the shields of the game (or close), so could test it if you feel like it. Just add me on PSN. I don't have my copy of the game now (lend it to a friend), but when I get it back, we can do it.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Emergence on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:48 pm

    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Magical Dmg would comprise 153, Physical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.



    Last edited by Emergence on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:09 pm

    this is with the manus catalyst right? maybe it changes the physical to magical ratio or something...


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Emergence on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:11 pm

    Well Rynn's observations came via TCC and Logan's. I've left Manus out of the equation for now, because that's a whole other ballgame when it comes to figuring out how Manus allocates the scaled damage into the final AR.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:41 pm

    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.

    I didn't even think about that. I should have just done it naked to get a more pure result. I know exactly what I was wearing, if that would help, but it might just be easier to do it again without armor.

    and the numbers you got from my testing wouldn't be manus catalyst, they'd be Oolicile. Pretty sure that's what the dark sorcerers use. I think we could also assume mid INT and probably base STR, but again all that would be easier with toons to test because we'd know exact numbers


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:15 am

    GMB doesn't nullify magic damage, your dark bead still did that amount because the spell itself deals so much damage. I have hit GMB-buffed people with crystal soul spear and it does a similar number of damage.

    I think that the damage dark bead does to GMB users is proportional to its total damage and not indicative of any hidden physical component.

    P.S.: I repeated "damage" so much :/
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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:16 am

    when i cast GMB on my guy i laugh at Dark magic, it does nothing, i also hit a guy with Full Pursuers and Dark bead who cast GMB and i did maybe 200 damage total with every thing said and done.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Rynn on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:07 am

    I currently have 60 strength and 99 int.
    When using the Tin Crystalization Catalyst, 25% of my original damage goes through Great Magic Barrier. 500 became 125.
    When using the Manus Catalyst, 33% of my original damage goes through Great Magic Barrier. 600 became 200.
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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Rynn on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:11 am

    CaligoIllioneus wrote:GMB doesn't nullify magic damage, your dark bead still did that amount because the spell itself deals so much damage. I have hit GMB-buffed people with crystal soul spear and it does a similar number of damage.

    I think that the damage dark bead does to GMB users is proportional to its total damage and not indicative of any hidden physical component.

    P.S.: I repeated "damage" so much :/
    Dark Orb was doing 400.
    Dark Bead was doing 990.
    Crystal Soul Spear did 120.

    Dark Orb, proportionally, only does 60% of Crystal Soul Spears damage usually.
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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:18 am

    With those results it's evident that your high Str increased the physical part of the dark sorceries. I wonder if the physical part of Black Flame increases with Int (since the pyro glove has Int scaling). I would lol hard.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Rynn on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:22 am

    My strength is now at 75, and about 45% of my damage goes through Magic Barrier.
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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Emergence on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:24 pm

    Hang on, gonna split this topic so that we don't have two intellectual pursuits happening at once.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:28 pm

    so back on original topic we are coming to the conclusion that high str adds a str element to dark magics?? this could be interesting and i can make a new SL200 build i have been considering...

    http://mmdks.com/dfl


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by FinPeku on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:39 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:so back on original topic we are coming to the conclusion that high str adds a str element to dark magics?? this could be interesting and i can make a new SL200 build i have been considering...

    http://mmdks.com/dfl

    The guy I let spam dark magics at me had almost exactly a build like that. He one handed havel's shield so he had at least 50str. And he did very little damage through gmb.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Rynn on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:40 pm

    I'm not sure what to say then. About 50% of my damage at 99 strength and 99 int now goes through GMB. MB only get's 30% of it.
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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:47 pm

    Rynn wrote:I'm not sure what to say then. About 50% of my damage at 99 strength and 99 int now goes through GMB. MB only get's 30% of it.

    lol wut.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Rynn on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:04 pm

    I do about 800 damage per hit. If someone casts Great Magic Barrier, Dark Orb does 400 damage. Magic Barrier lets 560 through.
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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:17 pm

    Rynn wrote:I do about 800 damage per hit. If someone casts Great Magic Barrier, Dark Orb does 400 damage. Magic Barrier lets 560 through.

    oh i miss read what you said, i thought you said 50% damage went through on GMB while only 30% went though on MB saying that MB blocked more.

    cast Dark orb against a shield. do Havels shield and Crystal ring shield.


    both shields block 90% magic but the Crystal ring shield only blocks 70% physical vs the Havels 100%

    so say you do 100 damage to Havels shield and 150 damage to Crystal ring shield, it is safe to assume 50 damage is the physical part, and since that was reduced by 70% you can then get an idea of what the physical portion was.

    the physical damage would be 143, since 70% of 143 is 100.

    get what i am saying?


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by SillentShadow on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:38 pm

    I believe this issue happens with me. DB kills me in one hit if close to the caster all take a full hit (1600 hp). With GMB i take a bit something like a third of my health bar (against the same player)...

    I wonder when the cast speed will be altered so we all can continue to enjoy PVP with the instant death by shotgun...
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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Emergence on Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:24 am

    Glutebrah wrote:
    Rynn wrote:I do about 800 damage per hit. If someone casts Great Magic Barrier, Dark Orb does 400 damage. Magic Barrier lets 560 through.

    oh i miss read what you said, i thought you said 50% damage went through on GMB while only 30% went though on MB saying that MB blocked more.

    cast Dark orb against a shield. do Havels shield and Crystal ring shield.


    both shields block 90% magic but the Crystal ring shield only blocks 70% physical vs the Havels 100%

    so say you do 100 damage to Havels shield and 150 damage to Crystal ring shield, it is safe to assume 50 damage is the physical part, and since that was reduced by 70% you can then get an idea of what the physical portion was.

    the physical damage would be 143, since 70% of 143 is 100.

    get what i am saying?

    This still needs to be revisited, as the wiki itself is in contradiction over the magical/physical debate.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Emergence on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:06 am

    Ok here's my testing vs Oolacile Sorcerer Dark Orb

    LVL 132 Magid D: 257 Phys D: 252 HP: 1325

    Crest Shield: 100% Phys Reduction 80% Mag Reduction: 54 dmg goes through (implies at least a strenght of 270 magical at 27 magic dmg for every 10%)

    Bloodshield: 100% Phys Reduction 30% Mag Reduction: 185 dmg goes through (using the 27 for every 10% number that would suggest 189 goes through so the numbers are consistent)

    Target Shield: 78% Phys Reduction 30% Mag Reduction: 244 dmg goes through (using the aforementioned ratio that suggests 185-189 of the dmg is magical which makes the other 59 or so physical damage. At 78%, 59 physical damage implies a close to 27-28 phys damage for every part of 10%. Thus far it seems the damage ratio is split 50/50 from physical/magic).

    Dark Hand: 80% Phys Reduction 80% Mag Reduction: this is the control. Using the numbers we have so far, it it's a split of 20% going through for each that would suggest about 54 magic going through and 54 or so physical going through. Expectation is that 108 will go through.

    Dark Hand allows 106 to go through. That's as close to a confirmation as it's going to get.

    Oolacile Sorcerer Dark Orb is 50% physical 50% magical according to what I'm seeing here.


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    Re: I still say Dark Magic is physical.

    Post by Glutebrah on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:16 am

    Emergence wrote:Ok here's my testing vs Oolacile Sorcerer Dark Orb

    LVL 132 Magid D: 257 Phys D: 252 HP: 1325

    Crest Shield: 100% Phys Reduction 80% Mag Reduction: 54 dmg goes through (implies at least a strenght of 270 magical at 27 magic dmg for every 10%)

    Bloodshield: 100% Phys Reduction 30% Mag Reduction: 185 dmg goes through (using the 27 for every 10% number that would suggest 189 goes through so the numbers are consistent)

    Target Shield: 78% Phys Reduction 30% Mag Reduction: 244 dmg goes through (using the aforementioned ratio that suggests 185-189 of the dmg is magical which makes the other 59 or so physical damage. At 78%, 59 physical damage implies a close to 27-28 phys damage for every part of 10%. Thus far it seems the damage ratio is split 50/50 from physical/magic).

    Dark Hand: 80% Phys Reduction 80% Mag Reduction: this is the control. Using the numbers we have so far, it it's a split of 20% going through for each that would suggest about 54 magic going through and 54 or so physical going through. Expectation is that 108 will go through.

    Dark Hand allows 106 to go through. That's as close to a confirmation as it's going to get.

    Oolacile Sorcerer Dark Orb is 50% physical 50% magical according to what I'm seeing here.

    you need to test on Havels and Moonlight butterfly shield. both block 90% magic but one blocks 100% physical and one blocks only 90% physical.

    that is the best way to test.


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