Backstabbers

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    Backstabbers

    Post by snaps on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:29 am

    Do you backstab? If so, why?
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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by vatar5 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:33 am

    Yes I often counter-BS so I can troll people who relies only on pivot BS.
    Although I've yet to learn how to counter roll BS.

    But I never go for the BS in a honorable duel except if my opponent turns his back on me.

    When I'm invading as a DM,I always consider first that the host is a sinner.
    Thus,unless he bows to me,he can expect anything dirty from me,healing/hide behind mobs/TWoP behind mobs/Spartah kick/BS out of nowhere.
    I don't use dark magic or WoG spam though.
    I used to use Hornet ring in the arena because it was only about countering Pivot BS but not anymore.


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:45 am

    I use backstabs only after getting backstabbed myself. I prefer to punish backstab with riposte, but it's not always possible.
    In most cases I use backstab against backstab fishers (pivot, roll, normal, doesn't matter which, fisher is fisher, skill aside) to tell them to stop using this tactic because it won't work. I usually try to create that kind of backstab when you both backstab each other for 0 damage...not sure how this is called to tell them "gtfo with bs man" and if it doesn't help I go for normal backstab and do so until my opponent abbandons this tactic or dies. It's the latter in most cases...

    However I have big problems with Japanese players, which can usually backstab me from positions and angles that I can't defend against. I was told it's thanks to their superior internet connection and that there's not much that can be done in such cases...

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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by snaps on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:13 pm

    I feel like backstabs are completely dishonorable. It feels like 80% of the time they are way out of bounds and the positions at which people hit you with them are ridiculous. I never really go for them myself, even if I have an obvious chance to. Luckily not many people do this in the arena anymore, but not many people have been in the arena at all for me lately, on 360 at least.

    Just looking to get some feedback from you guys, especially serial backstabbers and their stance on the issue.
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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Lord of Ash on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:21 pm

    Backstabbing is just another part of the games mechanics is not clean its not dirty dont let people behind you


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by snaps on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:31 pm

    Lord of Ash wrote:Backstabbing is just another part of the games mechanics is not clean its not dirty dont let people behind you



    That's the kind of logic that rustles my feathers. Half the time they aren't even behind you, and "just another game mechanic" is just silly.
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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by martyrsbrigade99 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:42 pm

    Because it is a part of the game just like normal attacks, strong attacks, parries, ripostes, pyro, miracles, and sorceries.


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Uparkaam on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:44 pm

    The devs placed it in the game for us players to use it. So I'll use it if I get the chance. It's just a regular game mechanic.


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by snaps on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:48 pm

    I can't even tell if troll, or just a whole new level of fanboyism.
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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by aceluby on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:00 pm

    snaps wrote:I can't even tell if troll, or just a whole new level of fanboyism.

    It's neither. We've been playing this game for a year, 3 if you include DeS, so BS are a normal part of the game for many of us. I personally don't use BS in PvP because I find the strategy to be boring, but I punish BS fishers.


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by FinPeku on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:09 pm

    @Snaps

    I assume you are relatively new to dark souls pvp. Certain tactics seem overwhelming and impossible to beat. Backstabs, wrath of the gods spamming, certain weapons or whatever you're having trouble with. We have all been there. But i'd suggest not to condemn these tactics or players who use them. Watch some pvp videos, ask questions, read different threads about pvp and most importantly, keep practicing and soon you will figure out counters to all those "dishonorable" tactics. Backstab fishing for example, can be countered in many ways.

    1. Learn how to use locking on/off in PvP. You don't have to be locked on to your target all the time. This will help you to predict your opponents movement and possibly punish him for fishing.

    2. Learn how to counter backstab. This will often either cancel, or make you backstab your opponent. How to counter backstab? When you see someone turning sideways and coming towards you, take few steps sideways to the direction their back is, and you will naturally end up behind their back.

    3. Be aware of lag and your actual distance to your opponent. Lag is often the reason backstabs look stupid. Adapting to lag is one of the most important things to learn. It will take some time, but more experienced players do it automatically without really thinking about it.

    4. Accept the fact that backstabs are part of the game. As many have already said, backstabs are part of the game. Usually people don't backstab because they want to be assholes. They backstab because backstabs deal a lot of damage with very little stamina, backstabs are easy to do, and they are a counter to some annoying tactics or a way to punish mistakes.

    Do I backstab and why? I do backstab. Because it is the best counter against spell spammers, sometimes turtles, and various other strategies. I don't fish for backstabs. I punish my opponent for mistakes. Sometimes the only mistake is to leave himself open for a backstab.


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by snaps on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:11 pm

    Fine, but the fact that it's a game mechanic doesn't mean it's fair. When latency is factored in most of these backstabs aren't even legitimate...

    It's like you KNOW soylent green is made of people, yet you continue to eat it regardless...
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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by somnam on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:48 pm

    Backstabs aren't pleasant, nobody likes them; I'll bs because I don't trust a stranger not to, and get annoyed when its the first/the only thing an opponent does or they bow after hornet ringing me.

    There are cool people out there though, people I know are looking for a fight rather than a safe win. That's when the honor rules stop being a seemingly meaningless chore.

    As for a reason others might bs beyond it "just being there", weapons with higher critical stats also deal relatively poor base damage. Which is why rapier guys usually have their eye out for parries and bses.

    Never let your guard down around a guy with a sharp stick.


    Question: Aside from kicks, is there any way to get a better grasp on counter bsing? When I do it, I cancel their bs, but some fishers...they just won't stop and make it an endurance thing.

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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Emergence on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:54 pm

    It's a matter of preference, and just like the etiquette or not debate, it's something that will never be resolved.


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:57 pm

    I avoid BS until i use it for a finish on some guy.. though usually i reserve it for people who are so bad i just wanna emphasise that fact.

    I prefer in duels to not use BS, but if random invaders come in then i'll go in all guns blazing, that includes some techniques more frowned upon than others, but thats what they get for trying to stop me winking


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Lord of Ash on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:58 pm

    the game is not about fair its about dying and learning from your mistakes some one backstabs or fishes letem get close then wog them and putem in a stun lock show them you can kill too


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by FinPeku on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:59 pm

    somnam wrote:Question: Aside from kicks, is there any way to get a better grasp on counter bsing? When I do it, I cancel their bs, but some fishers...they just won't stop and make it an endurance thing.
    Lock off, turn 180° and attack. Practice the timing with each weapon you like to use, and you will humiliate bad fishermen in no time. This obviously works best when they are locked on to you.


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Carphil on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:59 pm

    snaps wrote:I can't even tell if troll, or just a whole new level of fanboyism.

    Thats exactly the same thing they told me when I posted about the first time I survived an invasion, and how excited I was because I backstabbed the dude.

    Things changed, I usually don't backstab anymore, except in the forest.

    But the backstab mechanic did not changed, so like they said, its a matter of opinions.


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Uparkaam on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:02 pm

    somnam wrote:Question: Aside from kicks, is there any way to get a better grasp on counter bsing? When I do it, I cancel their bs, but some fishers...they just won't stop and make it an endurance thing.


    If you manage to damage your opponent right before they backstab you, it can negate their backstab totally. Unlocking & swinging your weapon (preferrably a fast one) and armour of thorns are good for this. (any piece of the armour works)


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by snaps on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:03 pm

    Lord of Ash wrote:the game is not about fair its about dying and learning from your mistakes some one backstabs or fishes letem get close then wog them and putem in a stun lock show them you can kill too

    Sorry none of my builds have wog, lol.
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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Lord of Ash on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:10 pm

    dont like it elizabeths mushrooms no backstab will kill you if you know how to work it


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Marino. on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:14 pm

    I use it because its part of the fighting mechanic .
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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Kerberos-013 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:34 pm

    Yes always backstab. More specifically counter backstab.

    The reason: It's the fastest attack in the game, and makes you invincible while you do it.

    I have thought about it quite a bit, but when in a PVP situation many times it is by far the superior technique to winning a fight. I find most often my opponent will first go for the backstab, this is a perfect opportunity to counter backstab them. Pull back on the stick and they circle right in front of you with their back open. Most of my fights have ended by counter-backstab, by a huge percentage, probably 80%

    Now is it "unfair", is it OP? Probably, imagine if backstab had some charge time to execute, instead of being instantaneous? Or even worse, imagine if you were vunerable during the backstab animation, instead of being invincible? But then this would be a completely different game and not a Souls Game. Would it be better? Maybe, maybe not. Fighting gankers would very difficult without backstab.



    BTW, my latest DM invader build is called "The Backstab Mechanic". Ruthless 80 poise, maxed out DM Blade on a +15 Zwei and I cast GMB on spawn. It is nasty.


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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by snaps on Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:59 pm

    I don't really understand how that's a reliable argument, you backstab because it's an easy win? lol....what's the point then?
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    Re: Backstabbers

    Post by Kerberos-013 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:08 pm

    Well, playing Darkmoon Blade at the moment, the point is to kill the host obviously. lol.

    And I never said it was easy, there's nothing easy about Dark Souls. It took hours and hours of PVP to perfect the technique. Before all that trial and error training, I felt cheated by backstab when I started.

    Most often the real problem is LAG, not the backstab mechanic itself.


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