That One Line from Solaire

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    TranceQuina

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    That One Line from Solaire

    Post by TranceQuina on Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:32 pm

    Hello, new here. So, light spoiler? Do I even need to use that word here?

    Well, I do love the idea that Solaire ISN'T Gwyn's firstborn and he's basically there as a way for From to mess with us, but there's one phrase that's currently sticking out at me and making me wonder.

    "Now that I am Undead..."

    Whether the Darksign appears on a person before or after they've died for the first time I'm not sure, but if "Undead" is simply the term for anyone branded with it, and if it appears during their natural life, you COULD take this line to infer that before he was "an Undead," he was something else, say, a god. What backs this up for me is that there are plenty of "Undead" NPC's that look plenty healthy and sane. How are we to know which of these people have ever died in the first place?

    The choice counterpoint would be the female merchant's line, "Nothing good ever happened to me in life, but now that I'm Undead, I've never been happier!"

    However, this wouldn't be the first example of a term in Dark Souls with more than one meaning. Like so many other parts of this story, the answer seems to be hidden in the semantics. My central question is: When does the Darksign first appear? At birth? At death? Somewhere in life? I hate to jump to such speculations because of a question that, in all probability, the answer for is staring me in the face, and I hope I haven't wasted anyone's time reading this.

    If anyone knows the answer to this question (and can give sources) or has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear! Thanks, and thanks for having me here!
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    Shkar
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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by Shkar on Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:50 pm

    TranceQuina wrote:Hello, new here. So, light spoiler? Do I even need to use that word here?

    Well, I do love the idea that Solaire ISN'T Gwyn's firstborn and he's basically there as a way for From to mess with us, but there's one phrase that's currently sticking out at me and making me wonder.

    "Now that I am Undead..."

    Whether the Darksign appears on a person before or after they've died for the first time I'm not sure, but if "Undead" is simply the term for anyone branded with it, and if it appears during their natural life, you COULD take this line to infer that before he was "an Undead," he was something else, say, a god. What backs this up for me is that there are plenty of "Undead" NPC's that look plenty healthy and sane. How are we to know which of these people have ever died in the first place?

    The choice counterpoint would be the female merchant's line, "Nothing good ever happened to me in life, but now that I'm Undead, I've never been happier!"

    However, this wouldn't be the first example of a term in Dark Souls with more than one meaning. Like so many other parts of this story, the answer seems to be hidden in the semantics. My central question is: When does the Darksign first appear? At birth? At death? Somewhere in life? I hate to jump to such speculations because of a question that, in all probability, the answer for is staring me in the face, and I hope I haven't wasted anyone's time reading this.

    If anyone knows the answer to this question (and can give sources) or has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear! Thanks, and thanks for having me here!

    It seems likely that only humans receive the dark sign and become undead, as Gwyndolin has been around as long as the undead have, and he seems fine.


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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:39 pm

    TranceQuina wrote:Hello, new here. So, light spoiler? Do I even need to use that word here?

    Well, I do love the idea that Solaire ISN'T Gwyn's firstborn and he's basically there as a way for From to mess with us, but there's one phrase that's currently sticking out at me and making me wonder.

    "Now that I am Undead..."

    Whether the Darksign appears on a person before or after they've died for the first time I'm not sure, but if "Undead" is simply the term for anyone branded with it, and if it appears during their natural life, you COULD take this line to infer that before he was "an Undead," he was something else, say, a god. What backs this up for me is that there are plenty of "Undead" NPC's that look plenty healthy and sane. How are we to know which of these people have ever died in the first place?

    The choice counterpoint would be the female merchant's line, "Nothing good ever happened to me in life, but now that I'm Undead, I've never been happier!"

    However, this wouldn't be the first example of a term in Dark Souls with more than one meaning. Like so many other parts of this story, the answer seems to be hidden in the semantics. My central question is: When does the Darksign first appear? At birth? At death? Somewhere in life? I hate to jump to such speculations because of a question that, in all probability, the answer for is staring me in the face, and I hope I haven't wasted anyone's time reading this.

    If anyone knows the answer to this question (and can give sources) or has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear! Thanks, and thanks for having me here!



    My response to you could be seen as major spoilers about the end of the game etc. I’m pretty new to the forum myself and have not yet learned how to use the spoiler box (my apologizes). Also, my response to you is heavy speculation so please take it with a grain of salt or use it to make up your mind about your Dark Souls experience. If you don’t want to see anything please do not scroll down anymore. Enjoy my poor man’s Spoiler warning.
    *Edit As soon as I posted I figured it out yay go me lol!
    SPOILERS BELOW >_>



    Spoiler:
    I think the splitting of the Dark Soul is what causes the Dark Sign. In this, as the First Flame grows weaker the Dark Sign spreads like a disease because the Dark Soul is gaining power as the flame fades. A good example of this is if you link the flame some believe it removes the darksign from everyone (but can return as the flame weakens again). So what happens when you link the flame? A big explosion that burns up everything it touches including any fragments of the Dark Soul it touches. The stronger the person linking the flame the bigger the explosion, the more of the Dark Soul they take out. It makes sense because when you burn fragments of the Dark Soul (humanity) at a bon fire it restores you to what you looked like before you died, and if you die again the darksign absorbs the humanity you had inside of you.

    The Darksign’s description says that:

    “The Darksign signifies an accursed Undead. Those branded with it are reborn after death, but will one day lose their mind and go hollow. Death triggers the Darksign, which returns its bearer to the last bonfire rested at, but at the cost of all humanity and souls.”

    So if death Triggers the Darksign you could say you would have no idea about it until you were “reborn” after you died. However, because it specifically says you are branded with the Darksign… that’s more than likely not true..

    This is the true power of the Dark Soul and the Darksign and I tell what I think their relationships to the Lord Souls are in a different post. The more I think about it the more I’m convincing myself. If you’ve got the time read what I was suggesting in the thread “How I see Dark Souls world. Spoilers/speculation” here is a link http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t12367-how-i-see-the-dark-souls-world-spoilers-speculation

    Thanks for your time and I hope this was of some use to you.


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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:16 pm

    Don't forget the depths key; such a small, yet significant item. It makes reference to turning people undead and sending them into the depths as a punishment - you don't even have to bring the curse on yourself, others can do it for you!


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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:27 pm

    Wade_Wilson wrote:Don't forget the depths key; such a small, yet significant item. It makes reference to turning people undead and sending them into the depths as a punishment - you don't even have to bring the curse on yourself, others can do it for you!



    Which makes you wonder how exactly someone else could make you undead..
    Would it have to do with putting a piece of the Dark Soul (Humanity) into that
    person? And if so would there be some kind of ritual? On a side note, what you
    said got me looking back at some item descriptions and I found something pretty
    interesting… I won’t post it here because it’s a little bit off topic but I
    will be putting into one of my other posts called “Primordial Serpents true intentions?”
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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:30 pm

    The Key to the Depths? It says

    Key opening the door from the lower
    Undead Burg to the Depths.


    Those banished from the Undead Burg eke out
    their existence in the Depths, a damp lair
    with no trace of sunlight. Nearly half of
    the Depths form a perilous flooded labyrinth.


    I don't think it refers to people getting exiled because they are "made" undead...Everyone in the Undead Burg is undead anyways, it seems to me that they get exiled by other various causes that aren't expanded upon...maybe that's where they sent the first hollows?
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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:54 pm

    CaligoIllioneus wrote:The Key to the Depths? It says

    Key opening the door from the lower
    Undead Burg to the Depths.


    Those banished from the Undead Burg eke out
    their existence in the Depths, a damp lair
    with no trace of sunlight. Nearly half of
    the Depths form a perilous flooded labyrinth.


    I don't think it refers to people getting exiled because they are "made" undead...Everyone in the Undead Burg is undead anyways, it seems to me that they get exiled by other various causes that aren't expanded upon...maybe that's where they sent the first hollows?


    Hmm you’re right I should have checked the item description before I
    posted my response. I did get wrapped up in the other descriptions I was reading though lo
    see my other thread…..l. I thought there was some reference about people being
    turned undead though? Hmmm actually never mind… I know a lot of people at one
    point were quoting the Watchtower basement key because it says he was “turned
    hollow”. Which all that could mean is he was undead and then killed thus turning
    hollow.. I think there is some confusion on the difference between an undead
    and a hollow as well, because of course someone could turn you hollow if you
    have the Darksign lol. That and the language could just mean he turned hollow
    on his own but like I was saying hollow and undead are 2 different deals and I’m
    getting off subject.



    "Key to the basement of
    the watchtower in the Undead Burg.

    The basement of the watchtower forms a stone
    cell. There are rumors of a hero turned Hollow who was locked away by a dear
    friend. For his own good, of course."
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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:06 pm

    I subscribe to the theory that links Havel to the occult conspiracy...my opinion is that he was locked in that basement when he was undead and then he hollowed because of the isolation.

    I think the confusion between "undead" and "hollow" comes from the "Reverse Hollowing" action at a bonfire (and people often colloquially call "hollow form" to when you look like a zombie). "Reverse Hollowing" means "Reverse the process of hollowing"...the character is never actually hollow. What is very vague is what actually causes someone to go hollow. I don't think it only depends on the humanity sprites but on some psychological aspects as well. And yes, I'm going off subject too silly sorry.
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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by Dante_000 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:04 am

    One thing though, I don't believe that to be Havel in the Watch tower, Since going from the item description of Havels ring which he drops, says something to the effect of, Havel's men wore the ring to express faith in their leader and to carry a heavier load.

    And this post from Dough Boy.

    Spoiler:
    Something of note, Havel doesn't actually wear Havel's ring. That was a ring made for his soldiers so they could wear
    his armor, but the real Havel managed to carry all of this load with merely the muscles in his body, and still he can manage to run if need be.


    Anyway, If you listen to the Crestfallen warrior, He says how Hollowing happens, the fact you are undead means exactly that, you are the living dead, Which I'm assuming is caused by the Dark soul thus the exiling, since Gwyn and the other Lords are very suspicious of the dark soul, now Hollowing happens when you lose the last part of yourself, when all hope is gone and you have no Humanity left.
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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by Shkar on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:09 pm

    Dante_000 wrote:One thing though, I don't believe that to be Havel in the Watch tower, Since going from the item description of Havels ring which he drops, says something to the effect of, Havel's men wore the ring to express faith in their leader and to carry a heavier load.

    And this post from Dough Boy.

    Spoiler:
    Something of note, Havel doesn't actually wear Havel's ring. That was a ring made for his soldiers so they could wear
    his armor, but the real Havel managed to carry all of this load with merely the muscles in his body, and still he can manage to run if need be.


    Anyway, If you listen to the Crestfallen warrior, He says how Hollowing happens, the fact you are undead means exactly that, you are the living dead, Which I'm assuming is caused by the Dark soul thus the exiling, since Gwyn and the other Lords are very suspicious of the dark soul, now Hollowing happens when you lose the last part of yourself, when all hope is gone and you have no Humanity left.

    The Dark Sign started appearing when the flame started dying. Now, since The Witch and Gwyn are basically out of the picture at this point, that only leaves Nito around as a lord to "fear" the undead. The undead themselves doesn't mean that they are walking corpses, but that they will never truly die. Your heart, lungs, brain, eyes, and ears all work. You can remember your past (mostly). You are alive.


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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:55 pm

    CaligoIllioneus wrote:I subscribe to the theory that links Havel to the occult conspiracy...my opinion is that he was locked in that basement when he was undead and then he hollowed because of the isolation.

    I think the confusion between "undead" and "hollow" comes from the "Reverse Hollowing" action at a bonfire (and people often colloquially call "hollow form" to when you look like a zombie). "Reverse Hollowing" means "Reverse the process of hollowing"...the character is never actually hollow. What is very vague is what actually causes someone to go hollow. I don't think it only depends on the humanity sprites but on some psychological aspects as well. And yes, I'm going off subject too silly sorry.

    While we’re off subject…..There have been a lot of threads on the forum (I’m sure you’ve read them) about what everyone thinks causes the hollowing process to happen. My personal favorite is exactly what you’re saying. One must first lose their humanity (as in they lose the humanity they absorbed, the one that makes them look normal again). Then if no humanity is sacrificed at a bonfire to restore the persons “human form” their mind begins to weaken.

    From a physical standpoint just look at the way the body looks when you lose your humanity from death. Shriveled up like a raisin, who knows what is happening to your brain at that point, but it’s safe to say that if you remained in that state for a long period of time you would have some kind of chemical imbalance.

    As for the psychological aspect you’re talking about I agree on that as well. When a NPC character goes hollow it’s almost as if they have lost their “life mission” or purpose so to speak (I think it was JohnnyHarpoon, Shkar, or maybe even Doughboy who has talked about this before sorry I can’t remember XD). Now weather that is by completing their mission, failing it or learning the “truth”, I can’t say but I do believe will power has something to do with you turning into a full hollow. A good way to look at is, thisis why the player character is never seen truly going hollow, if you’re playing the game you obviously have the will power to continue.

    Another thing to note, almost every NPC character you talk to says something about your appearance. Be it “oh you look like ****” to “oh you look sane”. I think this is a link to the psychological as well. If you had died and chemicals in your brain were already screwed all it could take for that sanity to break would be to see your reflection and realize you’re too far gone. And who doesn’t use humanity just because they hate the way they look while they are hollow (yes I play offline a lot lol)?

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    Re: That One Line from Solaire

    Post by TheLolrider on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:08 pm

    I like how this started as a discussion of one of Solaire's lines.

    For the record, I don't think Solaire used to be a god. There's evidence to suggest that all the gods were undead in a sense, so it seems silly for an undead to become undead again (twice baked undead?).

    I think the line is simply a throw-away suggesting that normal humans can't come to Lordran, only the undead can.

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