Can you all just stop please?

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    Knight Alundil
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    Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:16 pm

    Complaining about the mechanics of the game and asking/petitioning for things to be changed.

    Please, it's already achieved alot and it's changed what Dark Souls was.

    I remember playing it on release, prepatch, when it was actually hard. Yes the connectivity to other players was ****, so I agree that they should've changed that, but that's all!

    I remember slowly pacing through a scary, grim world that had such an ominous, hollow feel to it. It's gone now, and not because I just know the game or because i'm better at it. It's because it has been changed.

    From has answered your call when it comes to things like hornets ring, flipping etc. but please can you just stop now? As soon as you nerf one thing whatever was in second place becomes OP. Theres a lot of things I wish they would bring back from pre patch dark souls. For example;

    Not being able to lock on to fog ring users. I would love for this to come back. It really seems to me like we all as a community simply didn't know enough about PvP back then so they took it out (answering our pleas) and now that we all know more I would say sacrificing a ring slot in order to not be lockable is pretty decent. Any decent PvPer shouldnt need to lock on and if they do then thats why the fog ring would be effective. Y'know?

    It makes me really sad when I think of the memories I have of getting absolutely obliterated at every turn in this game, and now so many things have been nerfed and the game has been made so easy that it just isn't the same game anymore.

    I am asking you all to stop. Not pleading, not telling, asking.

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:19 pm

    If people think stuff is unfair I think they are welcome to voice it and petition From Soft. I might disagree, but much of the game has benefited from what Fromsoft has decided to patch.

    Imagine if the pyromancy flame or iron flesh was still as powerful as it started as? And I am looking forward to the Dark Wood Grain becoming >25%. Much of the complaining might be a little unnecessary, but that doesn't mean it should stop and everyone should sit down and say, "OK From Soft, you did pretty good, so we won't point out the flaws."


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:21 pm

    I agree with your points, but I feel like they dont apply to this game.(hear me out lol)

    From what I can see from my own memorys and experiences, everything in the game was pretty perfectly balanced at release. Every ability/spell/ring had the possibility of being OP if used correctly, and being absolute pants if used incorrectly.

    And iron flesh? Well... you could just run away til it wears off, right?

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Slarg232 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:22 pm

    I wish the Skeles didn't give souls anymore again :/


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:23 pm

    Slarg232 wrote:I wish the Skeles didn't give souls anymore again :/

    Yup. Me too.

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:42 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:I agree with your points, but I feel like they dont apply to this game.(hear me out lol)

    From what I can see from my own memorys and experiences, everything in the game was pretty perfectly balanced at release. Every ability/spell/ring had the possibility of being OP if used correctly, and being absolute pants if used incorrectly.

    And iron flesh? Well... you could just run away til it wears off, right?

    I meant for PvE when I referenced Iron Flesh. And it was simply an example for the fact that although Dark Souls is a very good game (*ahem* The best) there are plenty of flaws, in fact a ton of flaws, some that are inherent(hitbox detection/Twin screen render lag). And if the community really thinks one or two are a problem they are entitled to that. In the long run it will help Help Fromsoft to see where people complain, then go and evaluate the problem objectively and come to a conclusion as to really how the mechanic effects the game.


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:46 pm

    Buggy Virus wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:I agree with your points, but I feel like they dont apply to this game.(hear me out lol)

    From what I can see from my own memorys and experiences, everything in the game was pretty perfectly balanced at release. Every ability/spell/ring had the possibility of being OP if used correctly, and being absolute pants if used incorrectly.

    And iron flesh? Well... you could just run away til it wears off, right?

    I meant for PvE when I referenced Iron Flesh. And it was simply an example for the fact that although Dark Souls is a very good game (*ahem* The best) there are plenty of flaws, in fact a ton of flaws, some that are inherent(hitbox detection/Twin screen render lag). And if the community really thinks one or two are a problem they are entitled to that. In the long run it will help Help Fromsoft to see where people complain, then go and evaluate the problem objectively and come to a conclusion as to really how the mechanic effects the game.

    I just don't want the game to end up the way we think it should be, rather than the way it is. I much prefer when there were attributes in the game which werent perfect and they had to be learned; pivotstabs, online parry timing, etc.

    These were the things that made Dark souls to me, and the more we change them the more I can see it becoming like just another rpg. If you've played the DLC really think about what i'm saying about it becoming just another rpg and I think youll agree sad

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Yukon on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:59 pm

    Amen to this Alundil.

    The community needs to stop and consider this game more closely before crying wolf. From made a game where you could CHOSE how to build a character, any item in the right hands becomes lethal, some more easily than others. We can keep asking for petitions to change the X ring or the Y armour but in the end a new 'best' set up is going to rise in the metagame of PVP. If we are actually doing anything with all these petitions and demands its taking manpower and time away that FROM could be using to make their next game.

    Pre-patch lost Izalith was a nightmare. It was easily my most unforgettable moment playing Dark souls, today turned into a joke. What aggravates me most about these new DLC changes is that people asked and begged for rings to be nerfed and now that they are they are going to be neglected to the point of being invisible to players, DWGR and the hornet ring share the same fate as the fog ring, a gimmick ring. I anticipate the next target will be wolf ring, or leo ring, their closest replacements.


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:02 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:
    Buggy Virus wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:I agree with your points, but I feel like they dont apply to this game.(hear me out lol)

    From what I can see from my own memorys and experiences, everything in the game was pretty perfectly balanced at release. Every ability/spell/ring had the possibility of being OP if used correctly, and being absolute pants if used incorrectly.

    And iron flesh? Well... you could just run away til it wears off, right?

    I meant for PvE when I referenced Iron Flesh. And it was simply an example for the fact that although Dark Souls is a very good game (*ahem* The best) there are plenty of flaws, in fact a ton of flaws, some that are inherent(hitbox detection/Twin screen render lag). And if the community really thinks one or two are a problem they are entitled to that. In the long run it will help Help Fromsoft to see where people complain, then go and evaluate the problem objectively and come to a conclusion as to really how the mechanic effects the game.

    I just don't want the game to end up the way we think it should be, rather than the way it is. I much prefer when there were attributes in the game which werent perfect and they had to be learned; pivotstabs, online parry timing, etc.

    These were the things that made Dark souls to me, and the more we change them the more I can see it becoming like just another rpg. If you've played the DLC really think about what i'm saying about it becoming just another rpg and I think youll agree sad

    That's a good point, and the reason why Fromsoft is in charge of development and why players can only give their feedback.

    Of the changes that have effect the PvE or PvP I haven't seen anything that has really made it less unique as compared to other RPGs. I personally hated certain things, like the Skeles dropping souls, many item drops becoming auto-pickups and the making numerous bosses deal less damage. But I don't think things that the PvP community has complained about, even if it has been alot, has really effected the PvE experience, which is what From Soft is really around to deliver.

    Perhaps forumers are a little overzealous, but hey, it's a forum, a place to voice opinion.


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:18 pm

    You're right, I already see people gearing up for fights over what the new OP metagame is going to be, be it the Obsidian Greatsword or the Wolf Ring or even eating grass. Soon people are going to be whining that the RtsR is too powerful to be combined with the Leo Ring, etc. until every build has to be exactly the same to be "fair" and nothing is good or useful anymore.

    What I consider perfect online balance is that everything is powerful in its own way, depending on how it's used. It's a bit of an old example, but take CoD4 multiplayer. It had 5 weapon classes to choose from; Shotguns, SMG's, Sniper Rifles, LMG's, and Assault rifles, all of which were incredibly powerful and useful weapon types, in the roles they were meant for. Though I would consider myself very good at this game, I could take any weapon type and potentially dominate with it because I understood the game's mechanics and my weapon's role. LMG's were best used while stationary, and were excellent at firing on moving targets at range. Assault Rifles were the most balanced weapon class and boasted power with medium range, they could adapt to different circumstances and were very commonly used, while SMG's had the clear advantage in close quarters, etc. But there would be no cause to complain that a Sniper is OP because it was better than an SMG at long range, because each playstyle had strengths and weaknesses and a way to be effective, and yes, this is a metaphor for DkS in that every playstyle has clear strengths that may seem too powerful until you realize that anything one can do can also be gotten around. Now, yes, there are things that ruin game balance, but in general, they've already all been nerfed.

    It's time to stop complaining and just play the game. There are always going to be certain builds that have advantages over others and there are always going to be builds that you have an advantage over. But complaining about and nerfing countless things hurts build diversity rather than helps it. The Wolf Ring doesn't just help low poise builds meet the breakpoint for certain weapons, it can also be used to make some incredible tanks. So if we decide to nerf it, we all become low poise fast rollers trying to stunlock each other with Katanas. We have ring and item slots for the purpose of specializing our builds; choosing grass in your items may leave you unable to buff with resin, or cure toxin. The wolf ring could be substituted for a myriad other rings that either improve your offense, defense, or versatility.

    I once fought a BKGA user while using a rapier. His build was at a massive disadvantage against mine and I beat him taking only the chip damage from him hitting my shield. Next fight, he switched to a WP and I was the one at a disadvantage; his bleed meant I had to dodge a lot more than block and he had the definitive range advantage over me. So try thinking outside the box before you cry OP, and remember that some things have natural advantages over others.


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by callipygias on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:25 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:If you've played the DLC really think about what i'm saying about it becoming just another rpg and I think youll agree sad
    I've played through quite a few times and can't imagine what you're referring to. Whether here or in a new thread, can you clarify?


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:33 pm

    callipygias wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:If you've played the DLC really think about what i'm saying about it becoming just another rpg and I think youll agree sad
    I've played through quite a few times and can't imagine what you're referring to. Whether here or in a new thread, can you clarify?

    Sure!

    Spoiler:
    I would say that the visuals of alot of the new gear/weapons is VERY tacky looking. The arena has MASSIVELY impacted world pvp, which many people feared. Thats two of the larger points. Also the general nerfing that has happened is basically bringing everything closer together, which means if it continues down this path then every build will only have a slightly diff damage output than all others, making it more like other rpgs :/ It seems like theyre trying to adjust it so everyone has an equal opportunity to make a beasting character, which isn't right in my opinion. Those who put the time and intelligence in to work out a better build should get to be OP frankly

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:34 pm

    Ghadis_God wrote:You're right, I already see people gearing up for fights over what the new OP metagame is going to be, be it the Obsidian Greatsword or the Wolf Ring or even eating grass. Soon people are going to be whining that the RtsR is too powerful to be combined with the Leo Ring, etc. until every build has to be exactly the same to be "fair" and nothing is good or useful anymore.

    What I consider perfect online balance is that everything is powerful in its own way, depending on how it's used. It's a bit of an old example, but take CoD4 multiplayer. It had 5 weapon classes to choose from; Shotguns, SMG's, Sniper Rifles, LMG's, and Assault rifles, all of which were incredibly powerful and useful weapon types, in the roles they were meant for. Though I would consider myself very good at this game, I could take any weapon type and potentially dominate with it because I understood the game's mechanics and my weapon's role. LMG's were best used while stationary, and were excellent at firing on moving targets at range. Assault Rifles were the most balanced weapon class and boasted power with medium range, they could adapt to different circumstances and were very commonly used, while SMG's had the clear advantage in close quarters, etc. But there would be no cause to complain that a Sniper is OP because it was better than an SMG at long range, because each playstyle had strengths and weaknesses and a way to be effective, and yes, this is a metaphor for DkS in that every playstyle has clear strengths that may seem too powerful until you realize that anything one can do can also be gotten around. Now, yes, there are things that ruin game balance, but in general, they've already all been nerfed.

    It's time to stop complaining and just play the game. There are always going to be certain builds that have advantages over others and there are always going to be builds that you have an advantage over. But complaining about and nerfing countless things hurts build diversity rather than helps it. The Wolf Ring doesn't just help low poise builds meet the breakpoint for certain weapons, it can also be used to make some incredible tanks. So if we decide to nerf it, we all become low poise fast rollers trying to stunlock each other with Katanas. We have ring and item slots for the purpose of specializing our builds; choosing grass in your items may leave you unable to buff with resin, or cure toxin. The wolf ring could be substituted for a myriad other rings that either improve your offense, defense, or versatility.

    I once fought a BKGA user while using a rapier. His build was at a massive disadvantage against mine and I beat him taking only the chip damage from him hitting my shield. Next fight, he switched to a WP and I was the one at a disadvantage; his bleed meant I had to dodge a lot more than block and he had the definitive range advantage over me. So try thinking outside the box before you cry OP, and remember that some things have natural advantages over others.

    I have nothing to say about this apart from that I agree, and I wanted to clarify that so here it is again, quoted, like some sort of legend.

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Garl_Vinland on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:36 pm

    The way I see it is like this: Would you ask Capcom(the horrible little gremlins they are) to patch Megaman because Guts Man's power could totally destroy Cut Man? No, because it's part of the game. A person can still beat Cut Man even if they don't have Guts Man's ability, just like in DkS, you still have a chance to beat an opponent you aren't entirely prepared for. PvE or PvP, you can beat Nito without killing off his mooks with a divine weapon and you can kill an OP invader with your bare hands if you really want to. Balanced or not you always have a chance, so make the best of it; if you lose you lose.

    Sorry if anyone disagrees, but I have my opinions and you have yours.


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by callipygias on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:54 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:
    callipygias wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:If you've played the DLC really think about what i'm saying about it becoming just another rpg and I think youll agree sad
    I've played through quite a few times and can't imagine what you're referring to. Whether here or in a new thread, can you clarify?

    Sure!

    Spoiler:
    I would say that the visuals of alot of the new gear/weapons is VERY tacky looking. The arena has MASSIVELY impacted world pvp, which many people feared. Thats two of the larger points. Also the general nerfing that has happened is basically bringing everything closer together, which means if it continues down this path then every build will only have a slightly diff damage output than all others, making it more like other rpgs :/ It seems like theyre trying to adjust it so everyone has an equal opportunity to make a beasting character, which isn't right in my opinion. Those who put the time and intelligence in to work out a better build should get to be OP frankly
    Ah, good. I don't necessarily agree with anyhing in there. We don't KNOW that it's the arena impacting world pvp, we just assume it. Personally I've had little luck in the Arena OR the rest of the world since the pc release. The rest of it is more pvp-related complaining (yes, complaining about complaining is still complaining), so it's no biggie to me. Except that this is yet another thread that should be moved to PVP.


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:06 pm

    callipygias wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:
    callipygias wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:If you've played the DLC really think about what i'm saying about it becoming just another rpg and I think youll agree sad
    I've played through quite a few times and can't imagine what you're referring to. Whether here or in a new thread, can you clarify?

    Sure!

    Spoiler:
    I would say that the visuals of alot of the new gear/weapons is VERY tacky looking. The arena has MASSIVELY impacted world pvp, which many people feared. Thats two of the larger points. Also the general nerfing that has happened is basically bringing everything closer together, which means if it continues down this path then every build will only have a slightly diff damage output than all others, making it more like other rpgs :/ It seems like theyre trying to adjust it so everyone has an equal opportunity to make a beasting character, which isn't right in my opinion. Those who put the time and intelligence in to work out a better build should get to be OP frankly
    Ah, good. I don't necessarily agree with anyhing in there. We don't KNOW that it's the arena impacting world pvp, we just assume it. Personally I've had little luck in the Arena OR the rest of the world since the pc release. The rest of it is more pvp-related complaining (yes, complaining about complaining is still complaining), so it's no biggie to me. Except that this is yet another thread that should be moved to PVP.

    Thats cool man, and yeh if a mod wants to move this to PvP then so be it big grin

    I was just saying it impacted my world pvp because its definately the experience I've had. Im on of the few who is getting a rly good connection in the arena now and i'm getting minimal invasions everywhere compared to my xbox toons.

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:08 pm

    My only issue with the game is going to be patched, so i have nothing left to complain about. Guess what im referring to. lol
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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:10 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:My only issue with the game is going to be patched, so i have nothing left to complain about. Guess what im referring to. lol

    If it's HR (I think i've seen you raging about it before lol) then im mega sad sad

    I loved my lil bee ring. Backstabbing all over the place lol


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by callipygias on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:18 pm

    It's still pretty dang powerful.


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:19 pm

    Nope DWGR! seriously can't wait for that to be nerfed, i hardly can even stand playing on consoles right now knowing that it will be nerfed. I just want it gone, it is by far the worst thing in the game in my opinion.
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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:24 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:Nope DWGR! seriously can't wait for that to be nerfed, i hardly can even stand playing on consoles right now knowing that it will be nerfed. I just want it gone, it is by far the worst thing in the game in my opinion.
    '

    Haha DWGR really never bothered me tbh. I die to people with and without it and i kill em both too big grin

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Slarg232 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:25 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:
    FruitPunchNinja wrote:My only issue with the game is going to be patched, so i have nothing left to complain about. Guess what im referring to. lol

    If it's HR (I think i've seen you raging about it before lol) then im mega sad sad

    I loved my lil bee ring. Backstabbing all over the place lol



    30% extra backstab damage is still pretty dang mean....


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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:29 pm

    callipygias wrote:It's still pretty dang powerful.

    Slarg232 wrote:30% extra backstab damage is still pretty dang mean....

    Yes, this is true. But its kind of lost its edge. I can achieve the same backstabs with a different weapon. And I dont mean changing up my build for a more powerful weapon I mean within the same class and unequip the HR.

    I dont like to give away information about how I play tbh, tactics and such, so it's hard to explaine lol!

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by lordgodofhell on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:37 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:Any decent PvPer shouldnt need to lock on and if they do then thats why the fog ring would be effective. Y'know


    I don't agree with this. I consider myself fairly decent at pvp, among others on the streams, and 100% of them lock on at some point in the duel. To NEVER lock on would result in less accuracy and isn't an effective strategy for entire duration of matches.

    I agree with your thread here that some things should not be complained about. Hell I would love a harder version of Dark souls personally, where farming was more difficult, no cheats existed, and one needed skill to obtain kills. Sadly, this is the online world where someone will always exploit and followers ensue.



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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

    Post by e82 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:50 pm

    Ultimately, this is FROMS vision - and we are here to enjoy it. I do think that some changes/nerfs were justified, some others not so much.

    I don't think that the arena has impacted world-invading that much. There are still players that like invading other worlds, the thrill of the hunt of going after other players/etc and don't want to do the 'honorable duel'. Hell, even when doing proper dueling - I've had far more success invading Oolacile Township than spending time in the arena.

    From however, did recognize that there is a large 'duel-oriented' PvP community, and added arenas to help facilitate that aspect of playing. I see this as a good addition to the game, and not taking away from the dangers of world-invading PvP.

    Now people who want to duel, in theory - have a better chance at being matched up with others who want the same. If you still want to invade and hunt others doing progress-content, that option is still there and the arenas don't take away from that.

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    Re: Can you all just stop please?

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