Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

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    dreamperil

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    Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by dreamperil on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:30 pm

    From the looks of it, mages have some pretty awesome stuff in the DS 2, but have the developers talked about how magic will be implemented in the game? I admit, I thought the magic system in DS was a little lacking in my opinion. Also on a side note, I hope they do away with the curse status effect - I like the challenge of Dark Souls, but the curse effect is just cheap. Anyone else agree?
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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by raecor14 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:33 pm

    never been cursed by accident so i don't believe it takes away from the game at all and the magic in dark souls was just all over the place, some spells where great some had no use in PVP or PVE (im looking at you distraction (its not called that but who even knows its name?))


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:45 pm

    I don't believe the devs have gone into detail as how the magic will work, but this is what we know

    Magic takes stamina
    Some spells have normal and strong versions
    Some spells can be charged up
    Depending on how you use a spell changes on how much of it's total stack you used 
    Pyromancy is now a sorcery (Almost completely confirming that DkS2 is a prequel, in the timeline)
    There is definitely a larger range of spells, with different uses.

    Also, I think the "distraction" spell didn't work too well due to the lack of finalized polishing in DkS. DkS2 will have much more detail fixed, because the engine itself is new and extremely polished. There's a lot of new stuff, like light beams being able to pass over the player. 

    Utility spells that have only a few, specific uses like "distraction" will probably be more useful in DkS2, I believe, because I think there will be much more diversity in the scenarios implemented. In DkS, if you were to run through the game multiple times, you tend to see a pattern in almost every area: a few enemies spread out, then more enemies clumped together in groups. You find this when you first start with the hollow soldiers through firelink shrine and undead burg, the same with lower undead burg (a few dogs, then an ambush with a lot of ninja's), then with the sewers (a few hollows followed by more hollows, a few slimes followed by more slimes) the exception being the clumps of rats you find. 

    Each area starts off with a few, then brings up the # of monsters or the difficulty slightly. From what we've seen in DkS2, there's more variety in the # of monsters and the difficulty of the monsters. For example, the darkness that requires a torch: you go down and fight 2 new enemies. Not 1, then 2, then a large group. This, added with the early statements by the new director saying there will be more content in the same relative space in DkS2, compared to DkS1, implies that there will be a large variety in how each part of the game is played, and the different areas might not be as simply distinguishable as they were in DkS1. 

    THUS, new magic will have more uses.


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by dreamperil on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:49 pm

    Thank you, that was actually a very thorough answer. I am hoping for even more gameplay and combat variety, especially a battlemage sort of build.
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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by MosquitoPower on Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:20 pm

    I want to see some Buff spells for Co-op that are actually useful.

    Attack boost, Defense Boost, group elemental weapons castings, etc.

    Maiden guard spells are such a let down....
    So if that kind of covenant comes back in DS2 I want combat buffs and heal/regain spells that don't take a zillion faith and spell slots!


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:05 pm

    Curses aren't really magic but on that note I'd like to see Plague again or call it Blight instead. And a spell-buff for things like poison/plague/toxin/fire to upgrade upon the usually lousy consumables.


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:32 am

    Undiscovery, I love your avatar ;D

    On an on topic note, I agree with the co-op buff spells. I'm very much a social player, and I would love to see balanced but awesome group spells. (Can't make them too OP, or gankers will have too much fun)


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:51 am

    i'd like trap spells, or... at least spells tied to locations, for example dropping a sigil somewhere that casts force when stepped on (by the caster or opponent). deception and trickery are fun play-styles that just didn't get much love outside of a few gimmicks.


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by Undiscovery on Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:13 am

    ^---YES!! Like the Latria Idol floorspells. Thank you for reminding me of that Sparkly and awesome suggestion. I just made a Bowman/projectile build and it's fun as hell; I already use things like chameleon and the fog ring but having some traps would be awesome to set up a solo ambush PvP. Freeze them on a floor trap similar to Idol and peg em' with a greatbow. twisted


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by MosquitoPower on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:00 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:^---YES!! Like the Latria Idol floorspells. Thank you for reminding me of that Sparkly and awesome suggestion. I just made a Bowman/projectile build and it's fun as hell; I already use things like chameleon and the fog ring but having some traps would be awesome to set up a solo ambush PvP. Freeze them on a floor trap similar to Idol and peg em' with a greatbow. twisted
    I really like to trap spell idea too, that might help even out 3 vs 1 situations.

    Also if they really wanted to spice things up, it would be to have some invader only spell for charming an enemy into following you.
    Find yourself outnumbered by a bunch of ganks? Run into the level and grab a few mobs to even it out!


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by Seignar on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:41 pm

    Trap Spells don't sound like a good idea. They seem very easy to abuse in PvE (Cause the A.I is a genius, right?) and they have the potential to be abused in PvP (putting one in a tight corridor).

    But, on the topic of Magic, you know why I really want? I want Aural Decoy to, instead of making a sound, make a hologram of the user. The 1H Light projects the user walking forward with their shield down; 1H Heavy, with their shield up; the 2H variants, with them running instead of walking.

    It can be used to work on the mobs similarly, while it can still work on any invader, unlike presently, where its only use is to laugh at them.

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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:44 pm

    Seignar wrote:Trap Spells don't sound like a good idea. They seem very easy to abuse in PvE (Cause the A.I is a genius, right?) and they have the potential to be abused in PvP (putting one in a tight corridor).

    But, on the topic of Magic, you know why I really want? I want Aural Decoy to, instead of making a sound, make a hologram of the user. The 1H Light projects the user walking forward with their shield down; 1H Heavy, with their shield up; the 2H variants, with them running instead of walking.

    It can be used to work on the mobs similarly, while it can still work on any invader, unlike presently, where its only use is to laugh at them.
    Makes me think of the hologram power from Halo, and that didn't really work that well at all.

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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by Seignar on Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:52 pm

    I was thinking about it a bit...how it was probably the only armor ability I was good with. Also, a major difference between Halo and Dark Souls is that ranged combat is the norm in Halo, while Melee is the norm in Dark Souls.

    Although, in reality, deceptive techniques are hardly ever really useful. But still, if it worked that way, you could have the possibility of fooling someone. How many people are you going to fool with a laugh? ...mobs don't count!

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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by MosquitoPower on Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:07 pm

    Seignar wrote:Trap Spells don't sound like a good idea. They seem very easy to abuse in PvE (Cause the A.I is a genius, right?) and they have the potential to be abused in PvP (putting one in a tight corridor)....
    Just for the sake of topic discussion,
    Would trap spells balance out if:

    PVP = Trap spells are invisible, but if you throw a dagger/firebomb/arrow at it...it goes off. So if you know you are invaded, then it slows the group down knowing they cant just bum rush the invader. Because who knows what kind of trap is set.

    PVE = It would almost have to work like in dragon age 1.
    Set a glyph/trap and then draw in a mob.
    It still balances out because you are expending spells to kill mobs just like normal, except that instead of throwing fireballs, you are drawing mobs into the "motion sensor" spell.


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by Seignar on Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:04 am

    Invisible would make them a bit unfair because...they are invisible. Just because you can set it off safely, doesn't quite justify its invisibility. If anything, it should fade in and out (from completely invisible to slightly transparent) so the player has the chance to see it, like we can a mimic.

    As far as PvE goes, it is still easy to abuse. The A.I is not smart, it will walk into it if you simply put it in front of you and walk back. Also, even if the A.I is a smart enough to walk around it, this can be used to limit the A.I's movements by making the trap a sort of "wall". Also, even if it was designed so that it could hurt the user as well, one can simply place it in a tight corridor. No level of intelligence can pass that.

    Unless, of course, we made the enemies learn disabling techniques, but then you can abuse that by  forcing them into that animation (although, to be fair, that is a more fair tactic, considering you expend the spell for a halt to the enemies movements).

    If anything, imo, I think that the traps should work like this:

    1) Once the seal is triggered, it has a start-up time (about 1-2 seconds) before it explodes, giving time for the A.I to react (At least the higher-class mobs should react to a non-baited activation; forces to player to at least try to bait an attack so they are stuck in recover frames). Another reason is so that, unless you stick close to the trap itself, the enemies will run at you and quickly move away from the hitbox.
    2) The blast can harm/be set-off by the user to prevent certain tactics (Like hiding inside it).
    3) Its visibility varies from completely invisible to transparent so other players can notice.
    4) As said, it can be activated by direct attacks to prevent cheap moves (like placing it in tight corridors). In the case of PvE, mobs would disable it with a unique skill or do the same.

    5) I suppose considering these characteristics make it fair, it would be alright if mobs got this move.

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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by Shakie666 on Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:52 pm

    Speaking of traps, what about a spell that lays a magical mine, thats indistinguishable from a summon sign, but instead deal damage to the victim when they walk over it? Not sure how useful it would be outside of PvP, though invasions would certainly be more interesting.

    As for curse: if anything, it should be even more prevalent in DkS2 than it is now. Come on, aside from your very 1st playthrough, have you even been cursed without intending to? I know I never have (hell, I was never cursed even on my 1st playthrough). Not to mention it only appears in 3 areas.
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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by Undiscovery on Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:54 am

    A spell to turn phantom allegiance.. Like use Undead Rapport-esque spell on a Black Phantom he becomes white phantom. BP uses on White Phantom, they're both BP's and kill the host. xD Make it practical too, ganker cure.


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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by SlothAlmighty on Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:18 pm

    what about a necromancy spell that would bring low level undead back to life to fight for you for a short time?  

    also magic weapon spell that works on bows.

    curse/hex spell that lowers attributes

    lightning whip spell

    wall of fire spell

    control undead spell to make low level undead fight for you.
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    Re: Let's talk about magic! (And curses)

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:19 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:A spell to turn phantom allegiance.. Like use Undead Rapport-esque spell on a Black Phantom he becomes white phantom. BP uses on White Phantom, they're both BP's and kill the host. xD Make it practical too, ganker cure.
    Not if they are actually friends though. Besides phantoms can hurt each other. Maybe if there was a spell that let you turn friendly enemies (I realize it's a contradiction) into powerhouses. So you could cast it on an enemy when you're invading and have them fight the host.


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