getting too formulaic

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    IHateTheFourKings
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    getting too formulaic

    Post by IHateTheFourKings on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:35 pm

    I love Dark Souls, and I can say with certainty that it's among my five favorite games yet released.

    More recently, however, I've been getting bogged down in some of the more technical aspects. Now that I've gotten better at the game and know how to optimize my character in different ways, I feel like a lot of the spontaneity is gone. I find myself making very rigid builds for my characters, and focusing too much on planning. I often scrap characters halfway through the game because I didn't like how I leveled them.

    Long story short, I miss when I used to use whatever weapon or armor I feel like rather than trying to get the best out of their properties. Does anyone else have this problem? Can anyone recommend some sort of solution?


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:47 pm

    Yes, but you don't PvP so you should work with a freedom the rest of us do not have.

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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by MikailArksot on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:31 am

    I know exactly how you feel; I can't just make a "Grab and go" character. I have to plan out every single aspect before I even consider a build, or at least some of it for best optimization. 9 times out of 10, a build gets scrapped because I didn't like it.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by twigsterxd on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:34 am

    IHateTheFourKings wrote:I love Dark Souls, and I can say with certainty that it's among my five favorite games yet released.

    More recently, however, I've been getting bogged down in some of the more technical aspects. Now that I've gotten better at the game and know how to optimize my character in different ways, I feel like a lot of the spontaneity is gone. I find myself making very rigid builds for my characters, and focusing too much on planning. I often scrap characters halfway through the game because I didn't like how I leveled them.

    Long story short, I miss when I used to use whatever weapon or armor I feel like rather than trying to get the best out of their properties. Does anyone else have this problem? Can anyone recommend some sort of solution?
    That sounds like me the last 2 weeks playing Demons lol
    I've probably gone thru 20 toons and about to delete another because it sucks lolol
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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Green__Eagle on Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:11 pm

    Well, there are various challenges for PvE. Tank Build, Naked Caveman (with and without pyro), Short Bow only, etc. I've done them all and they give you new tactics to master.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:17 pm

    IHateTheFourKings wrote:I love Dark Souls, and I can say with certainty that it's among my five favorite games yet released.

    More recently, however, I've been getting bogged down in some of the more technical aspects. Now that I've gotten better at the game and know how to optimize my character in different ways, I feel like a lot of the spontaneity is gone. I find myself making very rigid builds for my characters, and focusing too much on planning. I often scrap characters halfway through the game because I didn't like how I leveled them.

    Long story short, I miss when I used to use whatever weapon or armor I feel like rather than trying to get the best out of their properties. Does anyone else have this problem? Can anyone recommend some sort of solution?
    This is one of the reasons I hate the idea of min/maxing. I mean even I do it- using mugen monkey, calculating every last stat and armour piece down to a T. But still it just turns the game into Numbers_Souls and it's pretty much an off spin being a tryhard and being really competitive, sadly.

    This is something the DWGR nerf actually ruined a bit really. With the DWGR, you could run almost any character without caring as you have so much equip weight to play with it didn't matter. Now though as everyone's fast rolling you have to be really exact to make a character viable, so it's much more important to min/max.

    I remember back when I had DWGR prenerf, I had a build that rolled, DSS, BSS, armour what I liked the look of (all medium/heavy armour no less) with total poise of about 50-65 and it only had 33 endurance. You simply can't get away with that kinda thing anymore, which is kinda sad to me.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Aigaios on Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:25 pm

    I don't think DWGR nerf ruined anything, I also don't see why people see the need use fast roll in every build when medium roll is just fine. As for builds I too don't see the point of min/maxing every build I just make builds around an idea i have or a different character then make it and use it. Spending time so that my build can do a little bit more damage or have a little more poise is pointless to me.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Zero LeStrange on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:12 pm

    Go into it wild. Pretend to forget everything you know. You can still wing it if you just play. No thinking.
    It's rather fun still. Then again. I started not too long ago.
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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:23 pm

    Now this is in relation to my primary character.  SL 230ish or something like that.  Jack of all trades, master of few.  

    But the most fun I've had was just picking something and trying my best for a night or two.  I strongly lean toward the Great Scythe with miracle backup (WoG, Lemon Buff) and heavy armor.  Although my dueling character is set up to fast roll with Black Iron.  

    When I got bored of that I tried a drastically different weapon to get out of my comfort zone.  Also, if I were to have a change up weapon in my arsenal, it should be as far removed from the Great Scythe as possible.

    I did surprisingly well with Priscilla's Dagger.  I did nothing but change the weapon in my character's hand.  (and removed the GS so I wouldn't be tempted by it).  

    Once I knew I was decent with that I figured test out alternate primary weapons for fun.  Out came the Gargoyle Tail Ax.  I learned some great facts about that weapon well ahead of the curve.  I still chuckle imagining the shock on opponents' faces getting stunlocked by that thing.  Or having their guard not just broken, but shattered.  

    Again, all I did was change the weapon in my character's hand.  

    Finally, I was used to the "normal" miracles.  Like others, I was fascinated by Karmic Justice but didn't see the point in it.  It was soooooo hard to rely on.  Other people seem to get the credit but I was the first person (here) that spoke out on the "5 hit rule."  And the "any damage counts" rule.  To date I still might be the most outspoken on the "roll really close to someone using a homing magic" technique.  

    I didn't change the build.  I just changed the idea.  

    I know that's easier on a high level Forest Hunter but the bottom line is this:

    That dex build you already made to optimize for weapon ___?  Guess what, it will work just fine with other dex weapons.  

    The Faith build that looked to take advantage of certain miracles? It can run other miracles too.  Just fine.  

    Wait, what's that?  You say you made a sorcery build?  My bad.  It's too bad you can't branch out into miracles.  If only there were a talisman that scaled with intelligence instead of faith.....

    Oh yes, Velka's talisman does just that.  You still might be limited by low faith (for some of the higher faith requiring spells) but that doesn't mean you can't experiment.  

    There are lots of people who enjoy meticulous calculation and farming etc for a perfectly optimized build.  I'm ok with that. That's their fun and they should go for it.  

    But for the OP who thinks it's getting too formulaic, I would say spend more time playing and less time optimizing.  I've pretty much never gone into a fight optimized.  You can still compete.

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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:33 pm

    Aigaios wrote:I also don't see why people see the need use fast roll in every build when medium roll is just fine.
    Untrue.
    Spoiler:
    IMO

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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:40 pm

    Wow, and I'm here jealous of my inability to follow my planned builds, I always find myself adding points where I shouldn't because I change my mind halfway.

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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by dalsio on Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:48 pm

    Hmm. I suppose it's hard for me to know how you feel. Numbers make me happy. When I get the chance to shoot an arrow and measure the angle it left my bow, what distance it traveled and what time it took so that I can calculate how fast my arrow is moving, how strong my character is and how much impact that has when factoring in the weight of the arrow, I get all giddy inside.

    However, as much as I like mathematics and experimentation (I'm calculating stamina regen ATM) I tend to wing it with my character build. I usually have a specific character type in mind, not based on what's the best, but what sounds cool. I simply forget about what other players use in their builds and go with what I like.

    Maybe I want to make a hulking behemoth of a tank who does like 3 damage? Maybe I want a guy who can jump around like a monkey and throw a thousand attacks before my enemy throws one? Maybe I want a nerd who can cast a single spell and make prostrate all his enemies?

    Once I figure that out, everything else comes naturally. I turn my brain off and prance through Lordran, finding out how my character deals with the situations I know so well in new and exciting ways. Sure I'll maximize my abilities, like wearing better armor or finding stronger spells, but for the most part I do it intuitively.

    In the end, I know that every boss can be defeated at any level, with any items, and any build, and I have faith that however terrible my character is, I'll have fun playing with him.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Ba22crow on Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:14 pm

    What this guy says. Sure the numbers are fun to toy with in your head. But if you want to have fun, start a character tonight, with one or no things planned. Have the weapon you intend to use as your primary planned from the start. Other than that go in blind and pretend nothing else matters. Put stats into what you will use for your chosen weapon, and use other weapons that benifit from them untill you aquire it. Magic, miracles, pyromancies, armor sets, roll speed, shields, let all those pieces fall into place as you play trying to get your weapon, when you do aquire your weapon, focus on becoming a killing machine with it.

    Basically remove as much from your mind as far as planning is concerned as possible. Your mind will know that you have to plan and will want to work on something, so give it one thing to plan for: your weapon. With everything else not set in stone, you will have loads of fun just getting through the game again with whatever you get your hands on. Or if you have a willing friend, trade down a untouched version of the weapon to your new guy so you can become one with the weapon and learn its nuances as soon as possible.

    I made a characer intended to use a notched whip, sure they are not the best weapon, but I realised upon hitting firelink that my notched whip will not do heavy damage, so I instead decided to make it lighting, lightning and bleeding sounded interesting. And from there that character went on to become a gravelord with tanky stats and was suprisingly effective. The amout of people who try to block and parry whips is phenomenal, and when it electrifies and bleeds through shields, a tank might just outlast his invaders using the thing.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by IHateTheFourKings on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:56 pm

    Thanks for the advice, everyone.

    Another problem I have is that I find myself leveling up in a way that puts my combined vitality and endurance equal to my combined dexterity and strength. For example, I'll have 13 vit and 17 end, and 18 str and 12 end, and try to keep it that way. Those numbers are just random and for the sake of example, but you get the idea. I have no idea why I do this.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by dalsio on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:13 am

    We all have those OCD moments. I hate using an estus flask when I don't have low enough health that the whole estus is used. It's like I count the health being wasted and hold a funeral for it every time. You can imagine this makes life quite difficult when I favor health-less builds.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:07 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:
    Aigaios wrote:I also don't see why people see the need use fast roll in every build when medium roll is just fine.
    Untrue.
    Spoiler:
    IMO
    Mid-roll IS just fine, also mid-roll is JUST fine.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:01 pm

    Pretty much every build of mine is mid roll. It's more then fine.

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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Aigaios on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:44 pm

    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:Pretty much every build of mine is mid roll. It's more then fine.
    Yeh! I'm not alone! devil


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by IHateTheFourKings on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:59 pm

    I'm always fine with a mid-roll, unless I'm specifically making an "assassin" build.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by dalsio on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:34 pm

    Fat rolls for days, bro. If I can't stand there and take hits like a meat-head all the while smashing my enemy's head in, I'm not satisfied. I usually find the biggest shield, the biggest sword, and the heaviest armor I can and wail on them. Usually works out pretty fine.

    But seriously, while I'm a fan of the tank builds, I usually like to move rather fast with them as well. I like to put points in endurance, grab an early havel's ring, and then prance all over the place in super-heavy armor. Nothing like moving with full stone knight set at medium speed.


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    Re: getting too formulaic

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:04 am

    I only recently even designed a build to fast roll.  Up until then, I would set up builds to mid roll and have a fast roll contingency plan.  I'm a mid-roll nut myself, but I recognize that the way the game is played with the constant threat of back-stabs and dramatic lag it can make mid-roll frustrating at times.  


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