Clutch Moves

Discuss your most hated clutch/crutch moves and how to counter them

Those moments in PvP where you're kicking somebody's *** and then they decide to pull out those moves that one-shot you.

Like Dark Bead for example

I don't understand.... 

Animaaal wrote:I don't understand.... 

 Okay my bad, I wasn't specific enough.
Let's start on how to counter Dusk Crown Dark Bead
Most likely one of the most used clutch moves

Great Magic Barrier
Vow of Silence
Havel's Greatshield
Stone Greatshield
Roll backstab
Keeping distance (the spell is pathetic unless you're close to the caster)
Evading / blocking the spell until the spammer is out of casts
Silver Pendant, although I wouldn't recommend this

I think you mean "crutch" moves.  "Clutch" moves implies that someone is pressured/about do die and then snatches victory from such a position...it doesn't make sense asking how to counter a "clutch" move and rarely would dark bead usage qualify...maybe in the case suddenly busting them out and blasting a ganker host while his 2 buddies are a step behind him, killing him instantly and winning the invasion.

Even plain old magic barrier is pretty solid; bead will do very little at that point unless you're point-blank...at which point you shouldn't be eating an unblocked hit anyway...or if you are it's to land a pancake attack that kills them or something.  I've poised through dark bead at the right distance using MB and a zwei R2 to kill someone, so it just depends.

Havels great shield is nice but if you have more than one mage blasting at you it doesn't matter how much stamina you have, they'll bust through, but against a single mage it pretty mush nullifies their arsenal.

as for another "clutch" move i'd like some tips on, how about last second pyro (blk flame) spam?
Particularly if you have no magic/ attunement.

Lmaousine wrote:

Animaaal wrote:I don't understand....

Okay my bad, I wasn't specific enough.
Let's start on how to counter Dusk Crown Dark Bead
Most likely one of the most used clutch moves

Strong Magic Shield or DWGR.

Sentiel wrote:Great Magic Barrier
Vow of Silence
Havel's Greatshield
Stone Greatshield
Roll backstab
Keeping distance (the spell is pathetic unless you're close to the caster)
Evading / blocking the spell until the spammer is out of casts
Silver Pendant, although I wouldn't recommend this

I wouldn't say its useless unless up close.  I have 18 of them and use them like arrows.  It's not as affective as a parry-->DB per say, but the spread is nice for people wanting to space out to grass or something.  Also the damage adds up over time.

sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:Havels great shield is nice but if you have more than one mage blasting at you it doesn't matter how much stamina you have, they'll bust through, but against a single mage it pretty mush nullifies their arsenal.

as for another "clutch" move i'd like some tips on, how about last second pyro (blk flame) spam?
Particularly if you have no magic/ attunement.

BF spam as a "clutch" attempt is only a good idea if 1 hit will kill them or they have 60 poise or less.  Otherwise they can poise tank 1 and kill you and you'd be better off parry or BS fishing.

I don't use it much because I don't host a lot, and it's not particularly useful against ganks (you want big AoE or sweeping attacks or things that alter enemy spacing).  In the right situation it can clutch a win at 45 dex though because it can stunlock.

Animaaal, I meant to keep distance from the beads themselves. You can block one, or two with Crest Shield and wait it out. The spell is much less of a threat with every meter it has to travel.

Sentiel wrote:Animaaal, I meant to keep distance from the beads themselves. You can block one, or two with Crest Shield and wait it out. The spell is much less of a threat with every meter it has to travel.

Oh for sure, its much less powerful at a distance. I wasn't trying to make it sound like its some really great ranged spell. It just has a nice spread that can be useful sometimes.

I'm not much of a magic guy but the spread is nice. Gets people moving, 100% of the time.

Amen to that.  

Certain castings I use just for that reason.  

animal is right... never under estimate the great magic shield.. I remember someone (maybe you?) posted a video of it in action.. I was so stunned at how well it worked... its so overlooked.

Poliwrath wrote:animal is right... never under estimate the great magic shield.. I remember someone (maybe you?) posted a video of it in action.. I was so stunned at how well it worked... its so overlooked.

I love having an intro to paste this vid, thank you poli, I needed to watch it again. 

The shield  is strong in this one:

best 7 mins of my life  "I mock the simplicity of your spell"

so best.. real wizards don't wear head bands!

Great magic shield is my favorite, but I'd add an offhand heavy crossbow +15 and heavy bolts to the list.  Just shoot the mage whenever they start to cast, unless they are stacking poise it will stagger them out of the animation, and does nice damage to boot -- often enough to one shot a hyper mode mage.  If they are trying something like fire tempest or TwoP, you'll also usually get a free headshot if you both are on level ground.

Sentiel pretty much gave a pretty accurate detail on how to counter these try hard tactics. What I find funny is how terrible these try hard players are once you drop Vow on them and they are forced to fight without magic. Quite honestly noobs are better fighters then these try hards who get their magic taken away. One guy I know who does the try hard method a lot will just jump over a cliff if he sees vow activated or GMB. When they are forced to fight with a weapon and the skill they possess they learn very fast they have neither one of these to fall back on. I myself just prefer to roll their spamming and bs them for being terrible players. Because it teaches them that they better have a plan B if their plan A isn't working at all against a skilled player. Just my opin

I prefer great magic barrier.  Shield only lasts for 15 seconds, GMB allows you to go full offence and 2H your weapon against a caster.  They have to menu switch to an elemental (and then back again) giving you great opportunities.  The extra 15 seconds GMB lasts is what does it for me.

Depends on context.  If you are doing 1v1 pvp, I think great magic barrier is probably better, or at least a bit more flexible.  But I much prefer strong magic shield for dealing with DM spammers in coop.  Here's why:

-- lower stat reqs.  You only need 15 int for SMS, so it is ideal for melee/str builds using an oolacile catalyst (the spell desc even hints at this).  In what I doubt is a coincidence, this also lets you employ hidden body (14 int) at the same time.

-- Duration of SMS (and hidden body) benefits from lingering ring.  If you are serious about a coop build in a DM spammer hotspot like the Township/Chasm, give real thought to using this ring combined with SMS.

-- SMS gives you 100% damage reduction to everything, not just magic.  A hypermode mage can still ruin your day by switching to GC if you use magic barrier, but your SMS will soak everything. 

-- You don't even have knockback thanks to the 100% stability, you can just sprint straight at them.  The 90% damage block on GMB is nice, but it can still add up with point blank DB/Pursuers, particularly if you are getting staggered.  This is particularly useful in coop, where the ability to stay mobile and keep blocking spells from reaching your host can make all the difference.

-- SMS works on all sorts of crazy things, including left hand weapons, and "shields" like the dark hand or even the skull lantern.  The telltale glow doesn't appear on all of them, like the dark hand shield effect, so you can have fun that way.  GMB's aura and loud hum make it harder to hide what you're up to.

-- It's counter intuitive, but SMS tends to work best on an already powerful shield.  Spammers want to spam, so the few that even have restraint enough to not just try to "break" through SMS somehow will wait until it wears off, and then reflexively start spamming even if your base shield is great, like havel's or the stone shield.

I have a coop build in the Township that has 6 casts of SMS combined with a stone greatshield.  Basically all you need to watch out for are dead angled WoGs, otherwise you can stand around soaking spells all day.  You can even stand directly in front of one of Manus's DM sprays or multi hit combos and not even lose stamina.

lorenzo110 wrote:Sentiel pretty much gave a pretty accurate detail on how to counter these try hard tactics. What I find funny is how terrible these try hard players are once you drop Vow on them and they are forced to fight without magic. Quite honestly noobs are better fighters then these try hards who get their magic taken away. One guy I know who does the try hard method a lot will just jump over a cliff if he sees vow activated or GMB. When they are forced to fight with a weapon and the skill they possess they learn very fast they have neither one of these to fall back on. I myself just prefer to roll their spamming and bs them for being terrible players. Because it teaches them that they better have a plan B if their plan A isn't working at all against a skilled player. Just my opin

Having skill as a caster is still having skill. Just because their strengths are not in physical combat is no reason to imply they aren't skilled, because they very well could be, just not in melee combat.

any caster without an elemental backup is being foolish and deserves the loss.

I prefer GMB because it shuts down mage weapons, the mlbh and mlgs (which can and will dead angle right through your sms with unlocked r2s or running attacks)

Das are a problem with SMS, unfortunately.  

However, casting SMS is a great way to "feel your opponent out".

And thanks for pointing that out pirate. Some people don't understand the complexity of cycling your attunements while maintaining proper spacing.

Using castings as a supplementary form of attacking is harder than it looks in most cases.

I endeavor to be fair and impartial.

Also, I'm sick of this supersticious "if its not melee there is no skill/honor" attitude.

I play 2 casters, and a hybrid (a sl 82 sorcerer, a sl 82 dex/pyro, and a sl 100 pure faith) and I know from experience that to beat anyone half decent requires a hell of a lot more than just db/wog spam.

Not only do you have to know everything a melee build does, but you have to keep track of casting order, casts left, which catalyst is out, where he will be when your spell gets to him (because you're not going to hit locked on) and half a dozen other situational things as well.

Switching between attuned spells, especially if one has more types of spells is a great way to use them, because it throws the opponent out of balance. Using them unlocked adds to this even more. Not once, or twice was I surprised that my roll BS got caught in unlocked DB for insta kill.

Using spells requires skill. A bit less thanks to DB and Pursuers then it used to, but it still does.

Yeah but imo it used to require absurd amounts of skill to be the least bit effective. its really, really hard to hit with css, even with patient baiting (which is the only way I can make it hit, same with hcsm) If 1 of my 8 hits I'm happy, if 2 hit i'm pratically jumping for joy, so awesome am I. Usually I only get the 1 and have to whittle them out of the rest with the mlbh or count on them trying to roll bs me so they eat a wdb.

All so true.

I can't tell you how many times I've pushed up on the d-pad too soon and did the "scratch my head, now I am backstabbed" thing.

When I first really got into my "attunement build", and nailed this dude with a:
Black Flame-->Force--->Great Combustion-->roll away unlock Dark Bead. It flowed like water.

He instantly indicted me and sent mea message that said, "that...was...beautiful..."
I felt like a