So many spears >.>

Ghadis_God wrote:It's all very well and good to say "I'm pro and don't need to block" but blocking is very very useful, you just tap L1 and you can negate your opponent's attack. As long as you don't rely on it, good shield use decides duels.

The beauty of DkS is you can play it however you want. Build whatever you want and use whatever you want. I'm not a shield guy. Not one bit. I'll use a shield for PVE but not in PVP. I'd rather tap L2 and parry. Just my personal preference. And i'm by no means calling myself "pro" lol.

SadPanda wrote:I'll only use intentional dead angles, raviolistep, reverse rolls, spell cancels, etc. when I know I'm against somebody on my level of PvP skill.

What is raviolistep? And why would you only use these things against people of your skill? Why do you care that much? People are ruthless. Nobody gives a turd. 100% of the time when i'm going into a match i never plan on bs fishing or anything cheap. Most of the time, the first thing the person does is strafe around me trying to bs me. That's when i throw my morals out the window. If you're gonna intentionally bs fish, i'll do the same. If you play like a normal person you only get bs'd if you're open for it.

I don't see why there are standards for what people should or should not use. I personally don't find back stab fishing cheap because if you are unable to avoid it then you deserve to be back stabbed in that manner. If you can't figure a way to work around someone using Tranquil Walk of Peace or using "cheap" tactics then you deserve to fall victim to them. The way I look at DkS PvP is that all the items, spells, etc. are in the game and fair game to use. It should be about learning to adjust to those things rather than limiting the options for other people because someone can't avoid being Roll-BS'ed or Dead Angled (those are just a few examples). The main point is that it is unfair and almost childish to tell people they can't or shouldn't use a tactic because it is noobish or over powered. It is up to you to find a way around that tactic and better yourself rather than coming down on people who don't PvP like you do. I don't mean this to come down on Dutchy, but rather on people who are caught up with their standards on how the game should be played.

SadPanda wrote:
-The "pros", (I know I'll get flak for this one), the people who think they're above all the others in PvP and use advanced tactics whenever they can. It would be like a twink going against a SL 6. I'll only use intentional dead angles, raviolistep, reverse rolls, spell cancels, etc. when I know I'm against somebody on my level of PvP skill. Not against the usual new PvPer.

You're right. I'll start.

1. the people who think they're above all others wouldn't have a need to use spears, or rapiers, or greatswords. They win with things like claws, because it provides an impervious arguement. either you win, because they use a crap weapon, or they win, validating their perfection.

2. Your metaphor is flawed. In fact, by not using advanced techniques to properly punish "new" players, you potentially gimp them by denying them the opportunity to learn what to expect and how to counter it. In addition, a sl 120 fighting a sl 6 is a situation outside of the meaningful control (it cannot be chosen if one is human, its either possible or not and wether or not it happens is random) of either party, where the actions of a player are in the players control, meaning, removing outside factors (eg sl) every fight is "fair" and its not my (or anyone elses) responsibility to gimp myself because the other player has yet to accumilate the knowledge to defend themselves properly.

3. When are people practicing advanced techniques supposed to do so? In low pressure enviroments, where they will have multiple opportinities. Where is the greatest concentration of such opportunities? New players.

Pvp is not balanced.

There are cheap tactics.

Yes there are that's not what I'm saying. Roll-BS'ing with a Hornet Ring and the Dark Silver Tracer is cheap; however, I am saying that no one should be told not to use that because it's cheap or violates someone's standards. I think that if someone gets Roll-BS'ed all the time and never finds a way to counter or avoid it then they deserve to be Roll-BS'ed.

Eko wrote:Yes there are that's not what I'm saying. Roll-BS'ing with a Hornet Ring and the Dark Silver Tracer is cheap; however, I am saying that no one should be told not to use that because it's cheap or violates someone's standards. I think that if someone gets Roll-BS'ed all the time and never finds a way to counter or avoid it then they deserve to be Roll-BS'ed.

I'll agree no one should tell someone else how to play.

However, that wasn't even a tactic that crossed my mind as cheap.

1)Pursuers-->TWoP-->CSS

2)The "kick-->chain bs"
*From what I read from another forum member (who I know is good at pvp), there's a kick that can stagger into infinite bs chaining. Not sure which kick it is though.

3)Dragonslayer Bow in Sen's. Now I'm not saying it makes me mad, hell, I'm not even saying I haven't done it..its just cheap...FUN...but cheap.

4) Spears...not gonna get into it.

I also didn't insinuate to anyone directly in regards to who's saying "All's fair in love and war". I'm just saying some people sometimes make comments that indirectly imply that anything should be able to be used in Dark Souls because everything is fair.

Also, some people make claims something is cheap, when they are simply fighting their "anti-build".

I personally (and am pretty alone on this) think FCs could be improved with complex rules that would help to inject a better balance. The community is already responsible for creating the pvp scene, I always thought we could make it slightly better.

Not that the FCs (especially the ones in this forum) are bad, or subpar to begin with.

With all that said, just to make it clear, I'm not trying to push my point of view on anyone....I'm just sayin.

Forum Pirate wrote:

SadPanda wrote:
-The "pros", (I know I'll get flak for this one), the people who think they're above all the others in PvP and use advanced tactics whenever they can. It would be like a twink going against a SL 6. I'll only use intentional dead angles, raviolistep, reverse rolls, spell cancels, etc. when I know I'm against somebody on my level of PvP skill. Not against the usual new PvPer.

You're right. I'll start.

1. the people who think they're above all others wouldn't have a need to use spears, or rapiers, or greatswords. They win with things like claws, because it provides an impervious arguement. either you win, because they use a crap weapon, or they win, validating their perfection.

2. Your metaphor is flawed. In fact, by not using advanced techniques to properly punish "new" players, you potentially gimp them by denying them the opportunity to learn what to expect and how to counter it. In addition, a sl 120 fighting a sl 6 is a situation outside of the meaningful control (it cannot be chosen if one is human, its either possible or not and wether or not it happens is random) of either party, where the actions of a player are in the players control, meaning, removing outside factors (eg sl) every fight is "fair" and its not my (or anyone elses) responsibility to gimp myself because the other player has yet to accumilate the knowledge to defend themselves properly.

3. When are people practicing advanced techniques supposed to do so? In low pressure enviroments, where they will have multiple opportinities. Where is the greatest concentration of such opportunities? New players.

I just think it isn't fun or fair to use advanced tactics against new players. I honestly don't even fight seriously unless it's against someone I know is at the same level as me. When I fight somebody better I learn, when I cheese somebody worse I don't. Just because I know advanced tactics it doesn't necessarily mean I have to use them. Almost all advanced techniques can be practiced on enemies in the game too.

There's still nothing funnier than getting a mailbox full of hate mail with a low level using the hornet ring + bandit's knife. I rarely do it but i have in the past lol.

Animaaal wrote:
4) Spears...not gonna get into it.

I also didn't insinuate to anyone directly in regards to who's saying "All's fair in love and war". I'm just saying some people sometimes make comments that indirectly imply that anything should be able to be used in Dark Souls because everything is fair.

It's probably a mistake even mentioning those weapons anymore despite the fact I see way more Kats falchions and Zweis than I do spears.

And I don't understand the second statment. I personally don't indirectly imply that anything should be able to be used, I outright claim that any non glitch or bug that was unintended should be able to be used because everything is basically fair.

Also perhaps one day you could make a thread outlining these complex rules that would make FCs better and add balance by taking away player options that already have existing counters.

SadPanda wrote:-The "street fighters", take out everything overpowered and make up rules that aren't there.

-The casuals, got the game 1+ year after it came out and are so saturated by FPS's and bad RPG's that they look up the guide from step 1.

-The "pros", (I know I'll get flak for this one), the people who think they're above all the others in PvP and use advanced tactics whenever they can. It would be like a twink going against a SL 6. I'll only use intentional dead angles, raviolistep, reverse rolls, spell cancels, etc. when I know I'm against somebody on my level of PvP skill. Not against the usual new PvPer.

-The blamers, they blame the reason the game is turning more and more like a bad MP game on other commnuities, but never realize their own falacies towards the game. If you dark bead spam gankers or hornet backstab spear users, they're just going to realize that's more effective than what they're doing and switch.

I can't say why, but I'm kinda glad that I can't see myself being a part of any of these groups.

I'm the type that acknowledges the game mainly for it's PvE, which is still the #1 focus of the game and it's devs. I know lot of us see only the online aspect and PvP in the game, especially now, so long after it's release. So, with that in mind, if I invade, or am invaded, I take it for what it is. An invasion. I kill the other guy and do everything I can to survive, just as it should be and expect the same from him. That includes healing, hiding behind mobs, summoning help, anything at my disposal.

I think that is the way the game should be played, or rather the way the game was intended to be played. If my opponent puts some self made restrictions on himself, like refusing to heal, refusing to backstab etc. it's his problem and his alone. It doesn't matter why and how he came up with these "rules", or false sense of honour. I don't ask the burglar in my house to drop the weapon and go settle it with me in Mario Kart.
That's why I don't understand the hate people have for using such things, or using particular "cheap" tactics and weapons anymore.

Of course. Duels via RSS and community held events are an exception to this, even for me. Events have rules to make the fights more spicy and interesting and duels...well, I see those as medieval sword fights. There is a honour in them, even if it is merciless killing of fellow man.

Sentiel wrote:

SadPanda wrote:-The "street fighters", take out everything overpowered and make up rules that aren't there.

-The casuals, got the game 1+ year after it came out and are so saturated by FPS's and bad RPG's that they look up the guide from step 1.

-The "pros", (I know I'll get flak for this one), the people who think they're above all the others in PvP and use advanced tactics whenever they can. It would be like a twink going against a SL 6. I'll only use intentional dead angles, raviolistep, reverse rolls, spell cancels, etc. when I know I'm against somebody on my level of PvP skill. Not against the usual new PvPer.

-The blamers, they blame the reason the game is turning more and more like a bad MP game on other commnuities, but never realize their own falacies towards the game. If you dark bead spam gankers or hornet backstab spear users, they're just going to realize that's more effective than what they're doing and switch.

I can't say why, but I'm kinda glad that I can't see myself being a part of any of these groups.

I'm the type that acknowledges the game mainly for it's PvE, which is still the #1 focus of the game and it's devs. I know lot of us see only the online aspect and PvP in the game, especially now, so long after it's release. So, with that in mind, if I invade, or am invaded, I take it for what it is. An invasion. I kill the other guy and do everything I can to survive, just as it should be and expect the same from him. That includes healing, hiding behind mobs, summoning help, anything at my disposal.

I think that is the way the game should be played, or rather the way the game was intended to be played. If my opponent puts some self made restrictions on himself, like refusing to heal, refusing to backstab etc. it's his problem and his alone. It doesn't matter why and how he came up with these "rules", or false sense of honour. I don't ask the burglar in my house to drop the weapon and go settle it with me in Mario Kart.
That's why I don't understand the hate people have for using such things, or using particular "cheap" tactics and weapons anymore.

Of course. Duels via RSS and community held events are an exception to this, even for me. Events have rules to make the fights more spicy and interesting and duels...well, I see those as medieval sword fights. There is a honour in them, even if it is merciless killing of fellow man.

The only time really people put "restrictions" is like putting your red summon sign down in the burg. I don't really play anywhere else for PVP. Most people in the burg bow, eat their grass, and we get on with it. Some people actually have skill and can use it to kill you, not bs fish. Those are the kind of people i like to play with. But at the same token, if you're gonna bs fish, i'll do the same. Like somebody said earlier, if you're open to bs fishing you deserve to be bs'd. People don't understand to stop the bs you have to learn how to do it. Just like people complaining about dark magic. I used to hate it but now it makes me laugh. You just gotta learn how to dodge it. And if you're spamming magic you're gonna get bs'd. Thee end.

Jansports wrote:

Animaaal wrote:
4) Spears...not gonna get into it.

I also didn't insinuate to anyone directly in regards to who's saying "All's fair in love and war". I'm just saying some people sometimes make comments that indirectly imply that anything should be able to be used in Dark Souls because everything is fair.

It's probably a mistake even mentioning those weapons anymore despite the fact I see way more Kats falchions and Zweis than I do spears.

And I don't understand the second statment. I personally don't indirectly imply that anything should be able to be used, I outright claim that any non glitch or bug that was unintended should be able to be used because everything is basically fair.

Also perhaps one day you could make a thread outlining these complex rules that would make FCs better and add balance by taking away player options that already have existing counters.

Ya, you're prolly right. Besides, my opinion has slightly changed based on where you're actually dueling thanks to the thread you made and Saint's tier evaluation. I wasn't taking a "stab" at spears, I'll still use them....
...anyone see what I did there?

Also, you're statement about "super glitches" better sums up what one might consider to be cheap anyway.

As far as the second statement, its pretty simple, or at least I thought. I guess using the CoD, a fully ascended pyrohand, while dueling at soul level 10? Or using the Oolacile cat, BDCR, CoD, and using Dark Bead at soul level 5? I just meant sometimes people have this "get over it" attitude when some things are clearly lopsided in favor of a particular playstyle at a certain soul level, or even in certain circumstances.

Lastly in regards to making a thread......mmmmmm...I don't think so. Most people (from what I can tell) aren't open minded to the idea anyway. I mean something that would be nice is "no RoFaP"..but how would you even enforce that? Or, "no grassing without 2 pieces of stamina-regen inhibiting armor". Just stuff like that. I just refuse to say, "FROM made everything balanced and therefore we cannot make it more balanced". I simply do not believe that, never will. However, I think they've tried really hard with all the patches they've given us.


Thank you FROM
And yes, sarcasm noted...kinda backs up my reluctance.

***edit***

Also, uh...thread title???

Using all those things at a low level, as long as they were obtained through actually playing through the game because you know HOW to do it and not because someone gave them to you is fair game. If people get mad about low lvl invasions because someone has something better than them (has happened to me) then they should do a low level playthrough themselves. I don't understand the argument. I have a lvl 1 pyro i got to ng+ with and deserve to use everything i can that i found along the way. If i can tell the person is new to DkS i'll throw them some humanity or a weapon i can't use but i'm not gonna handicap myself just because they're new. People just coming into DkS need to learn how it works. When i first started and had no clue where to even go or wtf to do i got stomped on until i learned how to play. That's just how it is.

Bleeding_Katana wrote:Using all those things at a low level, as long as they were obtained through actually playing through the game because you know HOW to do it and not because someone gave them to you is fair game. If people get mad about low lvl invasions because someone has something better than them (has happened to me) then they should do a low level playthrough themselves. I don't understand the argument. I have a lvl 1 pyro i got to ng+ with and deserve to use everything i can that i found along the way. If i can tell the person is new to DkS i'll throw them some humanity or a weapon i can't use but i'm not gonna handicap myself just because they're new. People just coming into DkS need to learn how it works. When i first started and had no clue where to even go or wtf to do i got stomped on until i learned how to play. That's just how it is.

No one said it wasn't fair game.

No one said they were mad.

I think you understand the argument.

Go ahead use it, it's cheap. It doesn't mean you live in your parents basement, it doesn't mean you'll grow up to be a thief, it means you are playing the game the way you want.

You're right, that is exactly how the game is....and at times it's cheap.

Animaaal wrote:
As far as the second statement, its pretty simple, or at least I thought. I guess using the CoD, a fully ascended pyrohand, while dueling at soul level 10? Or using the Oolacile cat, BDCR, CoD, and using Dark Bead at soul level 5? I just meant sometimes people have this "get over it" attitude when some things are clearly lopsided in favor of a particular playstyle at a certain soul level, or even in certain circumstances.

Lastly in regards to making a thread......mmmmmm...I don't think so. Most people (from what I can tell) aren't open minded to the idea anyway. I mean something that would be nice is "no RoFaP"..but how would you even enforce that? Or, "no grassing without 2 pieces of stamina-regen inhibiting armor". Just stuff like that. I just refuse to say, "FROM made everything balanced and therefore we cannot make it more balanced". I simply do not believe that, never will. However, I think they've tried really hard with all the patches they've given us.


Thank you FROM
And yes, sarcasm noted...kinda backs up my reluctance.

That explanation makes sense, yes it is true at certain soul levels some builds are over whelming. Pretty much anything ~20 or below Pyro and OiC with Bead is going to be dominant simply because it's impossible to have enough Vit at SL15 to withstand a GCFB from a full flame.

I think we all know I lean in favor of no rule or as few rules as possible FCs (no glitches, buff then bow, bow signifies the fight has started) But I would still be interested in hearing what rules people might be interested in, or discussion about why they/we/I think these rules will add something meaningful to the game.

As for rules like "No RoFaP" It would be on people's word mostly to keep it enforced, but I don't see this as a problem at least in this particular community I would trust most every forum member to not break rules on purpose (no spamming WoG is one that might get broken on accident, I have often tried to swap back to a shield to block after whiffing a wog only to have a second come out instead)

https://soulswiki.forumotion.com/t19451-new-pvp-forum-rule

Unless you are giving tactics to fight spear users, please drop this tired argument about how they are OP. We have had countless threads on this exact same subject.

everybody likes the easy way out

reim0027 wrote:https://soulswiki.forumotion.com/t19451-new-pvp-forum-rule

Unless you are giving tactics to fight spear users, please drop this tired argument about how they are OP. We have had countless threads on this exact same subject.

I wonder... did you read the thread? spears come up but no one's really arguing, or even discussing them

SadPanda wrote:

Forum Pirate wrote:

SadPanda wrote:
-The "pros", (I know I'll get flak for this one), the people who think they're above all the others in PvP and use advanced tactics whenever they can. It would be like a twink going against a SL 6. I'll only use intentional dead angles, raviolistep, reverse rolls, spell cancels, etc. when I know I'm against somebody on my level of PvP skill. Not against the usual new PvPer.

You're right. I'll start.

1. the people who think they're above all others wouldn't have a need to use spears, or rapiers, or greatswords. They win with things like claws, because it provides an impervious arguement. either you win, because they use a crap weapon, or they win, validating their perfection.

2. Your metaphor is flawed. In fact, by not using advanced techniques to properly punish "new" players, you potentially gimp them by denying them the opportunity to learn what to expect and how to counter it. In addition, a sl 120 fighting a sl 6 is a situation outside of the meaningful control (it cannot be chosen if one is human, its either possible or not and wether or not it happens is random) of either party, where the actions of a player are in the players control, meaning, removing outside factors (eg sl) every fight is "fair" and its not my (or anyone elses) responsibility to gimp myself because the other player has yet to accumilate the knowledge to defend themselves properly.

3. When are people practicing advanced techniques supposed to do so? In low pressure enviroments, where they will have multiple opportinities. Where is the greatest concentration of such opportunities? New players.

I just think it isn't fun or fair to use advanced tactics against new players. I honestly don't even fight seriously unless it's against someone I know is at the same level as me. When I fight somebody better I learn, when I cheese somebody worse I don't. Just because I know advanced tactics it doesn't necessarily mean I have to use them. Almost all advanced techniques can be practiced on enemies in the game too.

Why does "fairness" matter? How is it unfair? As I just explained, I see it as unfair to NOT use whatever tactic best suited to winning you the fight, especailly against newer players.

Further, your logic is again flawed. If you're so concerned with "fairness" and "learning," then explain how denying the lesser opponent the opportunity to learn to expect/ how to counter advanced techniques is fair or promotes learning. By refusing to hold back, you forge the weapons your enemy will then use against you, ultimately giving yourself more high level fights where you have the opportunity to improve.

Jansports wrote:

reim0027 wrote:https://soulswiki.forumotion.com/t19451-new-pvp-forum-rule

Unless you are giving tactics to fight spear users, please drop this tired argument about how they are OP. We have had countless threads on this exact same subject.

I wonder... did you read the thread? spears come up but no one's really arguing, or even discussing them

My appologies . . . I did read the thread, but the topic title and certain posts made me think of the spear war threads we had in the past. You are right that the majority of the posts were giving constructive help for fighting spears.

Forum Pirate wrote:

Further, your logic is again flawed. If you're so concerned with "fairness" and "learning," then explain how denying the lesser opponent the opportunity to learn to expect/ how to counter advanced techniques is fair or promotes learning. By refusing to hold back, you forge the weapons your enemy will then use against you, ultimately giving yourself more high level fights where you have the opportunity to improve.

If you've played with some of the more capable advanced tactics you know how gamebreaking they can be. I'm not saying if I did use them that I would intentionally use them for cheap purposes, I'm just trying to convey that I only will take a fight seriously and enjoy it to the fullest if an enemy knows how to counter my actions and can actually go toe to toe with me as well. I don't see the enjoyable aspect in cheesing a new player by dead angle comboing or reverse roll BS'ing. If I can play the game vanilla, the way it was supposed to be intended, that's when I enjoy it the most; even if it's not a huge challenge or provides me with a learning experience.