Ash Lake theory

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    benny-the-jew
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    Ash Lake theory

    Post by benny-the-jew on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:38 pm

    Hello. A bit of specalatin' concerning the giant skull, the clams, the hydra, the broken tree, Havel, and the mushrooms.

    1) Could the giant skull belong to a sibling of Crossbreed Priscilla? Physically, there could be some similarities. She has little-bitty horn-like protrusions on her brow, and the skull has larger, full-on horns. In any horned species I can think of, the males have larger horns than females, if the females even have horns at all. A brother, perhaps? We'll come back to that theory in a bit.

    2) The clams and the hydra seem to link Seathe and destroyed Oolacile (Darkroot) to Ash Lake. The only other place the clams are found is in the Crystal Cave. Maybe Seathe brought them back after a visit to Ash Lake? He's big on science experiments, perhaps he found them to be interesting specimens? Maybe he put them there? The hydra seems to be a possible link, too, as the only other one in the game is in Darkroot Basin, which has definite links to Seathe, what with the Moonlight Butterfly, the crystal golems and the whole Oolacile thing.
    Why would Seathe go to Ash Lake? For the Stone/Everlasting Dragon, maybe? Perhaps he (and maybe the gods also) got wind of a surviving dragon and went to investigate to try and obtain some Dragon Scales and kill the last dragon. Maybe then a fight broke out between Seathe and the Dragon, or at least it's servants, hence all the corpses with Dragon Scales. Maybe the giant skull belonged to Priscilla's relative, who went to warn the Dragon of Seathe's approach, or even protect it? The gods killed off the dragons, so perhaps this guy was killed for trying to warn the dragon and Priscilla was punished for her relative's transgressions against the gods by being banished to Ariamis.

    2b) Havel is linked somehow to Ash Lake since one of his miracles is found there...Perhaps when he heard of Seathe's movements against the dragon, he saw an opportunity to strike against his sworn enemy.
    Text from Great Magic Barrier:
    "Havel the Rock, an old battlefield compatriot of Lord Gwyn, was the
    sworn enemy of Seath the Scaleless. He despised magic, and made certain
    to devise means of counteraction.
    "
    Since Seathe helped the gods defeat the dragons, maybe this is why Gwyn had Havel locked away, as punishment for fighting Seathe.

    3) The broken tree could have been destroyed in the fracas. The mushrooms seem to me to be offspring of Elizabeth gone hollow, or maybe even not hollow, but just doing their job. They only pop up in Darkroot in our time and Ash Lake/Great Hollow. I think they're definitely linked to Oolacile and Elizabeth. I was thinking that maybe Elizabeth's children were trying to restore the Arch Trees, but then again, mushrooms don't exactly repair things in nature, they break things down. Something's up with them, though...they're also protecting the Enchanted Ember, which is linked to Oolacile.

    Anyway, I see Ash lake having strong ties to Seathe, Oolacile, Havel, and maybe even Priscilla with that giant skull. What say you?

    edit: Heck, now that I think about it, maybe the Stone/Everlasting dragon is Priscilla's father. He can't be killed (that we know of. I, like others, have my doubts), and she has powers that drain life, so there's a "life" connection, weak though it may be. Maybe the skull belonged to junior going to protect daddy?
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by morte on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:00 pm

    Well, it certainly sounds plausible, and it would explain where Seath got the scales of life and why the dragon scales are all around, and it seems to explain Priscilla and Havel, so I like it. Two things you may want to clarify are this: why is the everlasting dragon still alive if his scale of immortality was taken and why wasn't killed or locked up by the gods, who were confirmed to be able to tear apart the dragons.


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by benny-the-jew on Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:42 pm

    Well, the "Priscilla connection" is tenuous, at best. I was going only by the physiology of the skull, with no in-game clues for help. I think it's plausible, but not supported.
    As for why the Everlasting Dragon is still alive, I don't think his scale was taken. I think Seathe made an attempt, but was repelled by the Dragon's followers and by Havel and his men. The corpse you get the miracle from may not be Havel, since he's locked up in the tower connecting the Burg to Darkroot Basin; the corpse may belong to one of his soldiers. One thing that we know is that From doesn't just put items in random places - they're there for a reason. I think there may even be something to the fact that the corpse is on top of the mushrooms, pointing to the fact that the tree was destroyed, and the mushrooms started growing, before Havel and Co. fought Seathe. The Mushrooms may even be the reason the tree fell in the first place, speeding up the rotting and weakening of the tree.
    The reason the gods didn't just out-right kill the dragon...perhaps all this took place at a time when the gods were weakening? Maybe it happened after Gwyn went to the Kiln and the other lords were in disarray. The Chaos Witch was consumed by the Bed of Chaos, the Four Kings were trapped in the Abyss, Seathe is steadily growing more and more insane, and Nito is...weakened? (Is Nito weakened? I can't seem to figure that one out. The other lords are having problems, is Nito trapped in the Tomb?). Anor Londo has been abandoned, so the remaining gods and lords may not have been in any state to take on a real dragon.


    Last edited by benny-the-jew on Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by Ashran on Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:16 pm

    Im in love with this theory, it fits everything.


    Anyway, if in doubt, blame Seath!


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by twilightwarwolf on Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:44 pm

    seems like it could work though i have another idea but ill say it later. As for Nito he's weakend because some power somehow was taken by pinwheel ( i hate that guy btw) and how he has been offering it to death ( not quite sure how he does that ). the problem is he is the first soul so i assume he is or was the most powerful but now a days he's just kinda sittin in his tomb i imagine he's recovering his power by having his servants go gather and spread curses but thats just an assumption. As for the whole fight since Seath may have gone insane i wonder if maybe the dragon gave seath the crystal he has when you kill him so as part of a deal so seath woulnt tell and then of course seath goes insane forgets and leaves the other draon alone or if seath (being insane) had assumed that the first dragon (that be the skull) was the only one left and somehow taken his soul and infused it to a crystal and then linked himself to it so as to be immortal seeing as how dragons are generally immortal.


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by benny-the-jew on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:46 pm

    Thaaat's right, I forgot about how pinwheel stole Nito's power...So Nito is in a weakened state, then.
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by Ashran on Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:57 am

    benny-the-jew wrote:Thaaat's right, I forgot about how pinwheel stole Nito's power...So Nito is in a weakened state, then.

    Yep, papa Nito is very ill, awaiting to rise from his home. I feel so bad every time i kill him... damn it.


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by DE5PA1R on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:07 pm

    The broken Archtree supported part of Izalith. We can see this in the Tomb of the Giants. This is not coincidental.

    I think a more plausible explanation is as follows:

    The Witch of Izalith attempted to re-create the First Flame, which resulted in the creation of the Demons. The Demons proceeded to ransack Izalith. Gwyn's army was sent in to kill the Demons, and did a pretty good job.

    During these events, the Archtree that supported part of Izalith broke, burned or was purposefully destroyed. It may have broken under the weight of the Demons. It could have burned after the attempt to re-create the First Flame resulted in a tremendous fire. It might have been purposefully destroyed in order to keep the Demons contained within Izalith and keep them away from Blighttown and/or the Great Swamp.

    While burning, a large section of Izalith fell into the water surrounding the Archtrees, creating Ash Lake (this is why it's called Ash Lake). The remainder of the fighting between Gwyn's knights and the Demons occurred here. This explains the Demon's skull and the location of Great Magic (Sponsored by Flemmings Magic Shop - 5 New Locations) Barrier.

    After the battle was done and the dust settled, Seath swept the area and found the last Everlasting Dragon. Knowing this dragon was no threat (it's young, mutated and possibly unable to fly), he kept it alive in case he needed it for experiments. But, he stationed clams and a Hydra at Ash Lake just in case.


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:34 am

    DE5PA1R wrote:But, he stationed clams and a Hydra at Ash Lake just in case.

    Pretty sure the Hydra's don't work for Seath as they are one of the few enemies that kill other enemies, specifically Seaths crystal golem things. Also I think the clams originated within the lake since clams live on the beach/ocean, and they all drop ash covered purging stones which must have come from Ash Lake although if that's true I guess Seath must have sent them to Earl Arstor of Carim, or Carim makes its own purging stones. Gonna test whether the Hydra will kill the clams or not

    Still a really solid theory but I think if they station anyone down there, they died a long time ago and nature has reclaimed ash lake since the war with the demons would have been hundreds of years ago hence the frogs and mushrooms as well.
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by DE5PA1R on Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:22 pm

    Clams and hydras are wild animals. Animals kill other animals.

    Doesn't mean Seath didn't put them there.


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by VMatrixX on Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:25 pm

    The most probable reason for one of Havel's miracles being at Ash lake is when he was there fighting the dragons with Gwyn and friends, one of Havel's elite army members must of been killed by a dragon, thus meaning that you are looting the corpse of one of Havel's followers...

    Shrug


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:35 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:Clams and hydras are wild animals. Animals kill other animals.

    Doesn't mean Seath didn't put them there.

    How the hell would Seath drag a Hydra all the way down to ash lake or control it and make sure it stayed there? :shock:

    The rest of the theory was brilliant (more plausible than the one originally posted imo) but I think Seath got all he needed from the Dragon and left it there knowing he could return at any time (since the dragon has practically given up and possibly lost the ability to fly) without the need of a guard. Over the hundreds of years some wild animals came and inhabited the area.

    Although the channelers can teleport so maybe Seath can teleport Hydras and other things, damnit you win...
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:48 pm

    It's totally possible that Seath, being the conniving a--hole that he is, found the stone dragon and kept it to himself to try and find a way to replicate the scales. Havel, or on of his followers, must have found this out and went down there to destroy it. Seath probably had him killed by whatever it is that lies down there.


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by User1 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:33 pm

    Those shell head things are in the Crystal Cave, as well as Ash Lake. Perhaps, that is who Seath got to kill one of Havel's elite members.
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by benny-the-jew on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:26 am

    VMatrixX wrote:The most probable reason for one of Havel's miracles being at Ash lake is when he was there fighting the dragons with Gwyn and friends, one of Havel's elite army members must of been killed by a dragon, thus meaning that you are looting the corpse of one of Havel's followers...


    Yeah, that's what I figure, seeing as you fight Havel in the tower (or do you?). Havel's armor is found in Anor Londo, yet you seemingly fight Havel in a tower. A hardcore, magic-hating, dragon-murdering badass, and a couple doors can contain him? Not saying it's not him, just saying it's kind of funny. I think the Great Magic Barrier is definitely found on the corpse of one of Havel's soldiers, and not the man himself.

    Also, Ashran, with the whole, "When in doubt, blame Seathe," I think there's something to that. EpicNameBro gives compelling evidence that Gwyndolin is the real main bad guy, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's Seathe. Think about it: he betrays the dragons, has a hand in destroying Oolacile, kidnaps maidens and performs bizarre experiments on them...I'm starting to wonder if he maybe betrayed the gods and the Lord Soul holders, too. I never thought about this before, but that guy has agents in a few other places: Channelers. Those guys are Seathe's servants; one is in the Undead Parish, one is in the Depths...what are they doing outside of the Archives? Channelers, Moonlight Butterflies, crystal golems, man-eater shells...all these enemies are linked to Seathe, and are found in areas other than his. You also have almost the entire DLC bestiary, which Seathe is pretty much responsible for.
    Pinwheel is in an area with lots of books...possible link to the archives? He stole Nito's power, weakening him. What if Seathe had a hand in that? The Four Kings are trapped in the Abyss (I know, I know, Sealers did it)...Oolacile was consumed by the Abyss, which is (drum-roll, please...) Seathe's doing. All you need is a connection to the Bed of Chaos (which I'm too tired to attempt, but I'm sure I can find) and you have possible links to Seathe's involvement in the weakening of the other three Lord Soul holders, and thus a betrayal of the gods he once sided with against the dragons. Before you rail on me too hard, remember: these are only possible links. Perhaps Seathe is a much bigger player than we previously assumed?
    I am tired. Bed time now.

    other edit: could the Serpent Men be Seathe's cronies, too? Those guys are all through Sen's Fortress, and in the archives as well. I SLEEP NOW!


    Last edited by benny-the-jew on Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:00 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : credit Ashran to the "When in doubt..." quote)
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by benny-the-jew on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:48 am

    Also, I know other enemies from different areas turn up in other places, such as Gwynn's black knights, and the Taurus and Capra demons from straight outta tha Demon Ruins, but Seathe seems to have the most types of enemies that are linked to him roaming Lordran.
    Hey, totally off topic, but, did you guys ever notice how the knights show up in the Asylum upon your return? What if they were dispatched there to kill you and prevent your release, but showed up too late? Hmmm...

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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by User1 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:14 am

    That seems like an interesting question to answer. The Black Knights could have possible been dispatched by Gwyn, knowing there was a chance you could become the next Dark Lord, and try and send them to kill you. But, they got there too late, and you reappear later, much stronger than before, and able to take them.

    Just some speculation. It's the only explanation I've got at the moment.
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:25 am

    Halberd of the black knights who wander Lordran

    Umm Gwyn's been dead/hollowed/stuckinkiln for almost 1000 years I think so if he did order them to go kill you, they're very late. I think with their lord dead and most of their brothers killed in the Chaos Demon War or at the Kiln they are just wandering, killing everything in their path. I mean why would Gwyn order one of his few remaining knights to defend the blue tearstone ring?


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by User1 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:26 am

    I see your point now. Maybe, it's just in their nature to guard things.
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by DE5PA1R on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:58 pm

    benny-the-jew wrote:Also, Ashran, with the whole, "When in doubt, blame Seathe," I think there's something to that... I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's Seathe. Think about it: he... has a hand in destroying Oolacile...

    No. Not at all.

    Seath has always been the clean-up crew who comes in well after stuff goes down. AFTER the war is over, he sits on top of a pile of dragons studying them, probably angry that he can't obtain immortality by gluing the scales to himself. He goes to Oolacile AFTER the town residents are deceived by Kaampt (or Fraath, w/e) and the Chosen Undead takes cares of Manus. They didn't even consider sending Seath to Oolacile after Gough went MIA. Or after Artorias went MIA. Or after Ciarin went MIA.

    He's blind, handicapped, fleshy/vulnerable, and sticks out like a sore thumb. He can't fight worth a damn and he knows it (he literally has to construct an elaborate arena where warriors can't reach him and can't leave, and they still escape). Seath very rarely exposes himself to danger, and when he does he takes every possible precaution EVEN THOUGH HE CAN'T DIE.

    He's just an archetypal mad scientist.
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by DE5PA1R on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:03 pm

    CakeThiefPro wrote:
    DE5PA1R wrote:Clams and hydras are wild animals. Animals kill other animals.

    Doesn't mean Seath didn't put them there.

    How the hell would Seath drag a Hydra all the way down to ash lake or control it and make sure it stayed there?

    Here baby Hydra, eat some of these clams. You'll grow big and strong over thousands of years.
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:19 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    CakeThiefPro wrote:
    DE5PA1R wrote:Clams and hydras are wild animals. Animals kill other animals.

    Doesn't mean Seath didn't put them there.

    How the hell would Seath drag a Hydra all the way down to ash lake or control it and make sure it stayed there?

    Here baby Hydra, eat some of these clams. You'll grow big and strong over thousands of years.

    I'm such a fool, it's so obvious silly

    Also has anyone made a picture of Seath holding Superglue in one hand and a lonely dragon scale slipping off of his forehead? If not, make it so internet.


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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by benny-the-jew on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:54 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    benny-the-jew wrote:Also, Ashran, with the whole, "When in doubt, blame Seathe," I think there's something to that... I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's Seathe. Think about it: he... has a hand in destroying Oolacile...

    No. Not at all.

    Seath has always been the clean-up crew who comes in well after stuff goes down. AFTER the war is over, he sits on top of a pile of dragons studying them, probably angry that he can't obtain immortality by gluing the scales to himself. He goes to Oolacile AFTER the town residents are deceived by Kaampt (or Fraath, w/e) and the Chosen Undead takes cares of Manus. They didn't even consider sending Seath to Oolacile after Gough went MIA. Or after Artorias went MIA. Or after Ciarin went MIA.

    He's blind, handicapped, fleshy/vulnerable, and sticks out like a sore thumb. He can't fight worth a damn and he knows it (he literally has to construct an elaborate arena where warriors can't reach him and can't leave, and they still escape). Seath very rarely exposes himself to danger, and when he does he takes every possible precaution EVEN THOUGH HE CAN'T DIE.

    He's just an archetypal mad scientist.

    Arrgh! Y U gotta pee in mah Cheerios? silly

    That makes total sense. I keep forgetting Kaathe even exists, because I never go back to the Abyss after beating the Kings. Pretty important element to be forgetting/ omitting, Kaathe is.
    You're right, though, Kaathe tricked Oolacile into waking Manus up, they destryed themselves, Seathe comes in after the fact and starts grabbing people. I think its fairly obvious a there was a rumble in Ash Lake, but you're right, Seathe involvement there could have come after the smoke cleared. I'm not really on-board with the clams being agents of Seathe; they seem more like indigenous creatures, with their presence in the Crystal Cave stemming from the fact that Seathe just can't help himself and must collect specimens.
    Kaathe, then, may have had a hand in helping Pinwheel to obtain Nito's power, thus weakening him. Seathe you could almost call a bad guy if he did these things, but Kaathe isn't evil, he's just trying to usher in the Age of Darkness/Man. Perhaps he was instrumental in getting the Kings sealed away, too, making sure they stayed put so they could be more easily defeated.
    Of course, maybe Kaathe didn't have anything with the other lords being weakend; he's infinitely patient so he probably saw things moving and just waited for the right undead to show up.

    Okay, gotta leave it there for now.
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by ADORNTHESPIDER on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:32 pm

    The topic always gets sketchy when Kaathe or Frampt get into it. It's obvious they're both pulling strings to get you to complete their own objectives, but it's hard to figure out who has the darker intentions. I think both Kaathe AND Frampt are capable of this whole "weakening the other lords conspiracy".

    It's true that Kaathe did trick Oolacile into a nasty demise, and the fact that you find him in The Abyss doesn't help his case either, but Frampt strikes me more than a little suspicious. He's portrayed to be sleeping under Firelink Shrine, supposedly waiting for your arrival, but that guy gets around. Gwynavere, or her illusion I guess I should say, mentions that he can be trusted and to follow his wisdom, but she's just Gwyndolin's puppet. That must mean that Gwyndolin- not Gwynavere- knows of Frampt. This is all, of course, just speculation. I could also be that he knows Frampt because he was good friends of his father Gwyn.
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    Re: Ash Lake theory

    Post by Shkar on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:28 am

    Now that I think about it, there is really nothing saying that Gwyndolin created the illusion of Gwynevere. Yes, he is shown to have powers of illusion, but he also seems to have most of his faculties about him, and he refers to the illusion as "The Godmother's image."

    Now, I will readily admit that it could go either way, but it may imply an ownership, as well as an appearance. Yes, it is an image OF her. But might it not also be an image FROM her?

    You do gain the ability to cast miracles from her power by talking to her, after all.


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