why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

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    Icegodzilla
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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by Icegodzilla on Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:23 am

    yeah i did too kinda hard to remember details like that
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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by Elite Knight on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:50 pm

    Well, it's been said earlier: Seath is trying to get scales, not wanting to run the experiments on himself. As for the lightning-chucking, four armed serpent people? That's a tough one. Perhaps they were captured sorcerers (possibly Oolicilians?) Of course, I have nothing except their ability to harness electricity to go on with this claim, so I could be entirely wrong.


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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:08 pm

    Think God of War. The God of War inherited Gwyn's affinity for throwing lightning. The Silver Knights too used to wield it. Seath is capturing miracle using females as is evident in the octopus women who carry miracles. Perhaps they were once human women who were servants of Gwynevere, turned into Serpent women. Thus why they can use a miracle of that sort.
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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:25 pm

    There used to be many other ways to get into Anor Londo, but at some point it seems they destroyed the gates. I believe this is because they feared being overrun with Undead and before they abandon the city they attempted to seal it. Just look at the intro when it pans in on Anor Londo, it looks like it has multiple entrances. As for Sen's Fortress being a proving ground, I still say that it's original purpose was for humans to prove their worth to the gods and if they succeeded they became members of the Silver Knights. Hence, all of the Silver Knight statues as you're heading up. Now it's the only known entrance to Anor Londo and a strategic advantage over the Chosen Undead. Just my 2 cents of speculation.


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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by lalliman on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:12 am

    Deathsitexxi wrote:There used to be many other ways to get into Anor Londo, but at some point it seems they destroyed the gates. I believe this is because they feared being overrun with Undead and before they abandon the city they attempted to seal it. Just look at the intro when it pans in on Anor Londo, it looks like it has multiple entrances. As for Sen's Fortress being a proving ground, I still say that it's original purpose was for humans to prove their worth to the gods and if they succeeded they became members of the Silver Knights. Hence, all of the Silver Knight statues as you're heading up. Now it's the only known entrance to Anor Londo and a strategic advantage over the Chosen Undead. Just my 2 cents of speculation.

    ^ I like the idea that they could become a member of the silver knights, however i've never thought of black/silver knights as human. I mean, aren't they like 8 foot tall? Or is that just the black knights? I never really payed attention to the size of the silver knights.
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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by Icegodzilla on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:24 am

    silver are just as big, maybe gywn gives them a little power upgrade after getting past sen's fortress. I like the theory but the size of gywn's army is to vast for that because i don't think alot of people would make it past sen's fortress. If I remember the opening right gywn had a pretty large group of nights helping him fight the dragons.


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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by lalliman on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:46 am

    Icegodzilla wrote:silver are just as big, maybe gywn gives them a little power upgrade after getting past sen's fortress. I like the theory but the size of gywn's army is to vast for that because i don't think alot of people would make it past sen's fortress. If I remember the opening right gywn had a pretty large group of nights helping him fight the dragons.

    Exactly, i always figured that Gwyn's followers where a different race, so to speak. It would be strange anyways if Gwyn had to power to make someone 2 feet taller silly I always assumed the humans were the descendants of the pygmy, as they're the smallest humanoids around. But what do i know.
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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:17 pm

    I've always said that size is relative in the game and we have an example of someone gaining power and size with it (the O&S fight). That could be explained as just a game mechanic but lets look at it this way as well. Look at the armors... You put the Silver Knight Helm on and your head looks 2 feet taller but... the armor fits you. Now look at Goughs Armor when you put it on... it obviously does not fit you even though you can put it on. Same for Artorias Armor, Ornstiens Armor etc... I've always had a hard time trying to explain why I thought Gywn and his group were in the same brachet as humans. Maybe not the exact same race, but a form of human. I'll copy and paste what I wrote in a different thread yeterday as it's the closest thing I've been able to put out that basicly explains the way I feel..



    It’s my honest opinion that all of the people we meet in game are in some form “human”. Let me explain. In the intro it says “from the Dark they came”, when we hear this we see what looks like hollow-like people standing up. Gwyn, Nito, the Witch, Pygmy, etc are included into this “they”. It’s also key to note when it says dark it puts it in caps in the intro and reads “the Dark”. If we read Artoria’s Armor description it helps clear up what this “Dark” is…

    Helm of Artorias: Helm of Artorias the Abysswalker, one of Gwyn’s four knights. The death of the helm’s owner can be surmised from the corrosive Dark of the Abyss, and the musty azure-blue tassel, once a symbol of pride and glory.

    The corrosive DARK of the abyss is the liquid-ooze like substance that’s all over Oolicile and we can see large masses of it just before we fight the chained prisoner… just take a look at the steps where the Dark Sorcerers were and look to the left and right of it. HUGE puddles of black liquid… Now another hint as to what this is… the Primordial Serpents… Primeval man… These 2 words are similar yet the word Primordial seems to insinuate something deeper…

    Dark ooze=Primordial soup

    Primordial Serpents are in fact a part of the Darkness (the lack of light not the ooze) and were the first to come out of the soup. The Gold Serpent Ring says they are “imperfect dragons” and are associated with greed, and when you attack Ciran what she says is extremely interesting.. “Humans… Always taking what you please” that sounds like she is associating humans with greed as well…

    Gwyn and others (primeval man) came from the same soup as well as humans meaning they are in some way humans that have been enhanced by the power of the souls they received from the First Flame. Going back to what Ciran says…. She calls us “humans” that doesn’t mean she isn’t herself one, but it does make sense that if she does have more “soul power” from hanging out with Gwyn and company that she would believe herself transcended from the term human, and would use it as a cut down even..

    In addition, the races are all in a way related including the Serpents. Hence why they have human-like faces.

    Just speculation here though let me know what you think .


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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by lalliman on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:22 pm

    ^ Good that you point out the O&S thing. I've heard people suggest that power can make someone bigger, which i found kind of a weird thought at that moment. But now that you point out O&S (how did i not think of that myself) i actually find it rather likely.

    However what you said about the humans and primordial serpents doesn't quite disprove the idea of humans being descendants of the pygmy. Maybe greed isn't something bound to humans and serpents specifically, but to the darkness in general. As you probably know, the lord soul picked up by the pygmy was the dark soul, and if you reach the dark lord ending, it turns out the serpents are clearly servants of the darkness, not just Kaathe. Do you get my point or am i just spewing gibberish?

    (I like what you said about the human-like faces btw, cuz whenever i look at Frampt i'm like "Are you srsly related to dragons?!?")
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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:36 pm

    ^ You're not speaking gibberish lol. I also agree that the Primordial Serpents are working for the Darkness, and as a matter of fact I believe they are a part of the Darkness itself.. I've also said before that I think the names Frampt and Kaathe are actually the names of 2 clans of Primordial Serpents and not just a name for a single being. I always point to the pictures on the Caduceus Round Shield and the Caduceus Kite Shield. Both have 2 snake heads but we clearly see many more in the Dark Lord ending.I like how you say that Greed is something bound to the darkness in general that makes sense with what I was saying above =) Something you might find interesting... since we're on the subject, I posted this up in a different thread as well.When you look up the Caduceus (Wikipedia I know it’s not the greatest lol) there is an interesting section on…. Ningishzida the Messenger of the Earth Mother…. Heres a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida Long story short though, it says that Ningiszida appears in Sumerian Mythology and is sometimes depicted as a serpent with a human head… Also, in Sumerian his name translates into “lord of the good tree”. He’s also deity of the underworld…..


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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by lalliman on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:10 pm

    ^ that's some interesting idea's you have there. Frampt and Kaathe being the names of 2 clans instead of 2 individuals makes sense with the dark lord ending, as the voice says "Kaathe and Frampt" will serve you, and nothing about the other like 10 serpents there.
    You've probably heard about the theory of Kaathe and Frampt being part of a primordial hydra, that's a theory i've always supported. Yours is gonna give it a run for its money though. (is that the correct expression?)

    About the Caduceus shield, i wanna believe there's some sort of connection, but the 2 snakes is kind of the point of the Caduceus symbol. So i dunno.

    The connection to Ningishzida seems shady... It's undoubtable that the serpents act as some kind of deities, and have probably controlled the flow of events since the age of ancients, perhaps even before that.
    Because who knows what happened before that? Perhaps there was another age of fire before that, and before that an age which was called the age of ancients by the people who lived then.
    Maybe the serpents aren't imperfect dragons, but the dragons are imperfect serpents! The serpents lost their reign to the physically more powerful dragons, and that's where they needed the help of the humanoids! Oh my, my brain is gonna explode.
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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:28 pm

    lalliman wrote:^ that's some interesting idea's you have there. Frampt and Kaathe being the names of 2 clans instead of 2 individuals makes sense with the dark lord ending, as the voice says "Kaathe and Frampt" will serve you, and nothing about the other like 10 serpents there.
    You've probably heard about the theory of Kaathe and Frampt being part of a primordial hydra, that's a theory i've always supported. Yours is gonna give it a run for its money though. (is that the correct expression?)

    About the Caduceus shield, i wanna believe there's some sort of connection, but the 2 snakes is kind of the point of the Caduceus symbol. So i dunno.

    The connection to Ningishzida seems shady... It's undoubtable that the serpents act as some kind of deities, and have probably controlled the flow of events since the age of ancients, perhaps even before that.
    Because who knows what happened before that? Perhaps there was another age of fire before that, and before that an age which was called the age of ancients by the people who lived then.
    Maybe the serpents aren't imperfect dragons, but the dragons are imperfect serpents! The serpents lost their reign to the physically more powerful dragons, and that's where they needed the help of the humanoids! Oh my, my brain is gonna explode.



    Give it a run for it's money is the correct expression XD And I've always liked the Hydra theory as well. Mine isn't that much different, I just think the body that connects them all is the Darkness, so in essence you could still call it a Hydra theory lol. I understand what you mean about the connection to Ningishzida, and yes it is shady. However in reference to the Caduceus on the Kite Shield, I would ask you to take a real close look at the picture on the Caduceus Kite Shield. It looks like 2 Primordial Serpents looking down at the Lordvessel with some kind of Triangle above it. It basicly has a real primitive picture of the Dark Lord ending... Which is strange seeing as how guys that are in the Way of the White carry the shield around and they are always saying Venor Nox (spelled it wrong) which in latin basicly means "fear the dark".

    The reason I think they are called imperfect dragons is this. The Everlasting Dragons were known as Stone Dragons. First one we see in the intro doesn't even move like he's a part of the land. In addition to this, we have the Stone Arch Trees which we know have hardcore magical properties. I think it's safe to say that the Stone Dragons were born from the Stone Arch Trees, which is why in the intro we see Nito/The Witch of Izalith destroying the trees.

    With all of what I said above about the "Dark" ooze being Primordial soup, look at it this way. If the orignal true dragons came from the stone arch trees, and these Primordial Serpents come from this black ooze, where did the black ooze come from? Well we know the ooze didn't show up until the First Flame came about, which would have produced a large amount of heat that radiated from it. Which could have caused this ooze to melt from the surrounding stone. So the Serpents indirectly come from the same stone the dragons were made of, and yet they are completely different. Which I also think explains how humans can become Dragons in the Dragon covenant. Everyone is indirectly related >=O All speculation mind you, but doing my Analysis Series on this site I've spent hours staring at all these item descriptions and this is what made the most sense to me lol.



    *Edit Forgot to add. I think the Primodial Serpents feed upon souls and that's the reason they minipulated the Primeval Lords into having the Dragon War. Once that was over and Gywn and his group were not dieing they started the Undead "plauge"/Darksign by awakening the Pygmy (Manus?) so that the Dark Soul could be spread in the form of humanity, which I have speculated is the caused behind the spread of the Dark Sign. Either way they have been messing with things from the begining that's for sure.


    Last edited by Deathsitexxi on Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by lalliman on Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:27 pm

    "hardcore magical properties" xD
    I do understand what you see in the Caduceus shields actually. I already noticed that the snakes looked similar to primordial serpents, but not that they indeed seemed to bow around some bowl shaped item. As for the whitebros, they don't know about the serpents true nature. For all they know, the serpents helped Gwyn in defeating the dragons.

    It's clear why they're called imperfect dragons of course, and i figured the dragons would have been born from the stone arch trees.
    I'm not sure i support the idea of the primordial serpents appearing at the dawn of the age of fire. They're called primordial for a reason, that should mean they preceded any other kind of existing serpent. The problem is we know hardly anything about the age of ancients :S

    Once again i agree on the serpents controlling the flow of events, and i indeed think that they may have indeed started the undead plague. After overthrowing the dragons, the humans were of no use to them anymore so getting them out of the way is in there best interest. The only problem there is.... why does Frampt try to prolong the age of fire?

    Yeah well i'm sure you have more lore knowledge than i do :3 But well i'm doing what i can.

    (It's funny that we're not at all talking about the serpent people anymore big grin)
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    Re: why are there snake people at sen's fortress?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:43 pm

    lalliman wrote:

    About the Caduceus shield, i wanna believe there's some sort of connection, but the 2 snakes is kind of the point of the Caduceus symbol. So i dunno.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t2865p150-linking-internal-and-external-lore-norse-arthurian-and-etymology-in-dark-souls#163608

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