You are the fallen God of War

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    ThugsBunny

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    You are the fallen God of War

    Post by ThugsBunny on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:32 pm

    HEAVY SPECULATION AND UNORGANIZED POINT JUMPING INCOMING:

    Now I'm not really sure if this theory has been thrown out there yet or not but I've come to my own personal conclusion that you are in fact the god of war. Why, you may ask. Well dear friends I was sitting at my desk the other day thinking about DkS lore and doing my normal theory crafting (one of these days I'll find the time to post my whole theory on Havel) but started to think about the pendant. Right about now most of you are probably scrolling over to the back button because you don't want to hear this crap again but WAIT! This is just getting good. Remember the pendant and remember the painting in Anor Londo (I will post that picture when I find it, unless someone who has it would like to be a bro). Both of those are crucial to this theory. The little one in that painting is a very androgynous. For those of you who aren't aware that means people have a harder time telling whether you are a boy or a girl. I believe that is for a reason. He/she is also holding the pendant.

    Now let's analyze that little thing shall we? You may select it as a gift and the director(?) insists that you do so. As many people have said before me there is a reason for this other then the fact it does nothing. I believe this is the key to proving you are the god of war. Now as far as we know it has no purpose other then to trade to snuggly the crow for a souvenir of reprisal, which are used as trophies by the dmb covenant who hunt down traitors of the gods. Did we ever find out how snuggly procures the items he gives you? As far as we know someone in a different world found it (because DkS likes to say *** you physics) and left a souvenir of reprisal as they seem to think that you have brought justice upon the one who betrayed the gods so heinously to be cast out from their ranks.

    Let's jump around again and look at the beginning of your journey. You are a lonely undead locked in a cage with no for seeable escape before good ol' Oscar comes along. Why were you there? Before anyone says "From left that open to interpretation for a reason" what is it you think I'm doing? I believe that you were there as punishment for betraying the gods. Despite the fact it was a thousand years ago (*** you physics) you remain locked in there, the pendant keeping your will alive so you don't become hollow. Then you get out of the cage and face the asylum demon who let's be honest, does not seem to be there to simply guard a bunch of non-hostile undead. Then let's pretend you're a bad *** for a second and ended up killing him with the broken sword, since it is possible. Then you go through the level and run back into Oscar and he talks about the exodus, which is usually a religious migration of sorts. If you reject his story he will say that he was too hopeful. What was he hoping for? Did he come to the asylum simply to free you in hopes that you would be there (as the fallen god of war) and rekindle the flame?

    So you go on your journey more, defeating everything in your path and keeping your will strong even through death (something that I don't think any other undead warrior could do), displaying greater skills then all those around you. You continue on until you eventually ring both bells, awakening Frampt. Let's look at some dialogue real quick shall we?
    "Chosen Undead. Your fate is… to succeed the Great Lord Gwyn."
    "After a thousand years! It is you, it is really you!"
    The first one refers to you simply as the chosen undead, which we don't know much about the requirements besides to ring the bells, fill the lord soul, and kill Gwyn. But why can't the Chosen undead and the god of war be one in the same? He speaks about how he's found you after a thousand years, roughly the time when the fire was linked. Could it possibly be that you were cast out before then and so when Gwyn sacrificed himself Frampt went searching for you in order for you to take your rightful place as not only the Chosen undead but as Gwyn's first born?

    Another skip shall we? Eventually everyone must travel to Anor Londo where they will meet with the Illusion of Gwynevere. Time to analyze some more dialogue.
    "Since the day Father his form did obscureth, I have await'd thee.
    Once living, now Undead, and a fitting heir to father Gwyn thou art,
    O chosen Undead"
    Now most people probably think that in the first line fragment, she's speaking about Gwyn's form being obscured. I think she is actually referring to you, being that you were the eldest, she may be one of the few npcs to actually remember you pre-fall from grace. Then of course she refers to how you used to be alive but even in your undeath you are a fitting heir to the lord of sunlight. In the rest of her dialogue to she really stresses the word father in all of it. That may be for a reason.

    Now let's say that around this time you chose to return to the undead asylum. There you are greeted with four torch bearing undead. Now torches, while used for light, also were traditionally used in manhunts in ye olde days. Could they have been assigned to look for you or clues to where you have gone? And who assigned them? The two black knights that's who. Not only do you have to fight one of these big mofos, you have to fight two. Seems a little odd that these 'wandering hollows' who are also some of Gwyn's most faithful companions could have both found there way here. Now I know I said they could be searching for clues, but let's think about what is at the end (relatively) of the asylum this time. The doll. Could they be guarding the doll after hiding it there, why else would they need the extra muscle. Let's think for a second why they would want to defend it from a fallen god of war on a quest to kill his father (their master) and take his place. Because the doll could be used to get into the painted world where Priscilla is kept. Are they afraid that the god of war/ chosen undead could ally themselves with the half-breed and use her terrifying life hunt ability to end the reign of the gods? This could be used as an argument simply for the chosen undead but it cleverly fits with my theory.

    How about we take a nice trip to the past shall we? I have a piece of dialogue from Gough that we can analyze.
    "And even a legend such as thineself can do nothing to stop that." This is when you first sort of meet Gough. I forgot what part this is at but let's just presume the only things he knows about you is you killed Kalameet (get to that in a second) and Artorias. But that was super recent, so you would not be a legend yet. Gough of all people would be one to remember you and remember the legends about you and possibly fighting by your side in the dragon war. Now we'll move on to Kalameet. Not much to say about this guy other then the fact you killed him when no one in Anor Londo could have. That's pretty god of war level badass.

    Let's talk about Kaathe for a second. When you give him the lordvessel he tells you this:
    "By sacrificing himself to link the fire, and commanding his children to shepherd the humans,
    Gwyn has blurred your past, to prevent the birth of the Dark Lord."
    Commanding his children, which includes you, to shepherd the human. Perhaps you weren't as banished as you thought and Gwyn ultimately cast you down so that you would be among them to lead them into restarting the age of fire. Then he says he has blurred your past. He is not talking about his other kids or all of humanity/the dead, he is talking about you. Could he have done this so you would forget your reign as a god in order to better lead the human race? Maybe you volunteered (like a bro) but did not know you would have your memories wiped, and only Gwyn knows the truth. Perhaps that's why he immediately attacks you so that: 1. You would not begin to remember him, 2. He sees you now as his son and the ultimate warrior whether you are the god of war or a mere undead and wishes to give you one final test, and 3. he realizes his time is over and is ready to die in hopes you will reunite the flames and lead humanity and gods into a new era.

    Then there's the points that this whole rant began with, that painting and the pendant. The pendant is yours, it is all that remains from your reign as a god. The boy/girl in that painting is you. Not only are you the chosen undead but you are the fallen god of war. Everything between this and the first paragraph is just filler and evidence that all leads back to that.

    EDIT: Shout out to Shkar and xMalevolence for bringing up a few more points, the big one being the lightning spear miracles. Every miracle in the game is learned by finding it on a corpse (more then likely they wrote down how to use it) or taught by someone. The three spears though are learned by praying to the sun. I have two ideas building off this point (again, shout out to the two mentioned above). I think either: A. You already know these being that you were Gwyn's son and the closer you get to godhood by praying the more you start unlocking the power you once had, or B. Gwyn is directly receiving your prayers and after receiving the sunlight medals you offer, which are showing that you were a bro and helped a bunch of people out in their times of need, he decides that you have earned more of your power back. This could also fit in as to why he would grant you the sunlight spear. He could see that in another world and time you have defeated him and (as far as he knows) links the flame, so he grants you his greatest weapon.


    Last edited by ThugsBunny on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: You are the fallen God of War

    Post by Shkar on Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:17 pm

    Someone used some of my previous evidence for my claim (and added on a bit).


    "1. The player is unique; can light bonfires, can restore humanity, can loop time (Groundhog Day style, you warp back to the start of the game), and learns the sunbro miracles when nobody is around to teach him.

    2. The God of War is always referred to as "he", yet male is the default gender people use when they don't care about political correctness.

    3. Kaathe says Gwyn has "blurred your past." Who ELSE do we know who has had their past erased?"Now these theories made me 60-40 on the idea.

    This next part is my speculation, and it really only applies to the 2nd part brought up by Shkar, but I've never seen this brought up before, someone correct me if it has.

    The description to the Undead Asylum F2 West Key says in the last part of it "But even if a hero found a key in Lordran to liberate this prison, would he have the means, or the heart, to ever come back?"

    I congratulate you on finding text in-game to support the theory. I hadn't thought of applying Gwyenevere's and Kaathe's statements to this theory.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t11618-firstborn-questions-possible-spoilers


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    Re: You are the fallen God of War

    Post by ThugsBunny on Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:53 pm

    Hey look at that lol. Sorry as I said I wasn't sure if this was brought up before (just joined this site today). So I swear I didn't steal your points we just happened to bring up some of the same things. I hadn't thought about the bonfires too much though considering that it seems multiple characters have used them and can traverse space-time. The lightning bolts though however is a very good point, thanks for the tip.
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    Re: You are the fallen God of War

    Post by Shkar on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:18 pm

    ThugsBunny wrote:Hey look at that lol. Sorry as I said I wasn't sure if this was brought up before (just joined this site today). So I swear I didn't steal your points we just happened to bring up some of the same things. I hadn't thought about the bonfires too much though considering that it seems multiple characters have used them and can traverse space-time. The lightning bolts though however is a very good point, thanks for the tip.

    Even the bonfires Solaire sits at have to be lit by you.

    As an aside, the pnly character who makes refrences to time being distorted is Solaire, and he seems a bit crazy. Maybe he is wrong?


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    Re: You are the fallen God of War

    Post by ThugsBunny on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:29 pm

    Well for all we know the bonfire in his world is lit and we can't see it. And both the white and orange soap stones make reference to the *** up time stream, and the only "special" bonfires that need to be lit by fire keepers only are The White Ladies, Firelink, and Anor Londo. Lighting a bonfire is basically kindling it and in the right of kindling description it says "Kindling was a sacred rite passed down among clerics, but all Undead can imitate the process, in the same manner that they restore their Hollowing with humanity." so really anyone can do it.
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    Re: You are the fallen God of War

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:43 pm

    Shkar wrote:
    ThugsBunny wrote:Hey look at that lol. Sorry as I said I wasn't sure if this was brought up before (just joined this site today). So I swear I didn't steal your points we just happened to bring up some of the same things. I hadn't thought about the bonfires too much though considering that it seems multiple characters have used them and can traverse space-time. The lightning bolts though however is a very good point, thanks for the tip.

    Even the bonfires Solaire sits at have to be lit by you.

    As an aside, the pnly character who makes refrences to time being distorted is Solaire, and he seems a bit crazy. Maybe he is wrong?


    I’m not saying you’re wrong about the time distortion Shkar,
    however; aren’t their multiple items that also state talk about the time
    distortion? Also, Dusks dialogue mentions a “plane of distortion” Now that
    doesn’t mean time… however, it would seem she is referencing time due to the
    fact this is where you are pulled back into time. Also, Andre of Astora calls
    Sen’s Fortress and the Darkroot Garden “forbidden planes” again I believe
    referencing time distortion.


    The time distortion has something to do with your theory about
    the First Flame being the soul of the world, which could in turn have to do
    with a death/life cycle. Meaning, the world’s time or Death/life cycle has been
    distorted… Also, isn’t it funny there is a zone underground called “The Great
    Hollow” the world could be “Undead” itself equaling the time distortion. I’m piecing it together in my analysis.. but
    it’s making more sense now more to come very soon =)


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    Re: You are the fallen God of War

    Post by Shkar on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:55 pm

    The NPCs you summon are, for the most part, close to your time. They are all fighting the same bosses, and most of them are referenced by NPCs. Logan is considered old and talked about in legends, and he's only 100. Add on that most of their bodies appear in your world only after you kill them, and it seems as if the soapstones only allow you to cross into different parallel worlds which, assuming you are the God of War, means that your workd is the "real" one and all the other ones wrap around yours. So it's not so much that time is "distorted" as it is "fraying". The one cord has started to break off into seperate threads.


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    Re: You are the fallen God of War

    Post by ThugsBunny on Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:05 pm

    They're close but at the same time I don't actually see how what you brought up helps your argument. Take Solaire for instance, with a little help from you he makes it to Gwyn and unless he just didn't want to attempt to face him and is waiting for you, he's ready to fight him. He made it just as far as you, filled the lord vessel with the souls of people you also killed, and more then likely link the fire. You can reword it however you want but the point is there are in fact multiple worlds and time streams.
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    Re: You are the fallen God of War

    Post by Shkar on Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:31 pm

    ThugsBunny wrote:They're close but at the same time I don't actually see how what you brought up helps your argument. Take Solaire for instance, with a little help from you he makes it to Gwyn and unless he just didn't want to attempt to face him and is waiting for you, he's ready to fight him. He made it just as far as you, filled the lord vessel with the souls of people you also killed, and more then likely link the fire. You can reword it however you want but the point is there are in fact multiple worlds and time streams.

    Worlds are one thing, but a lot of arguements that people have made in the past have hinged around time itself being completely FUBAR. Sorry, the arguement I was making was more against the veterans here who I've been arguing against all year.


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    Re: You are the fallen God of War

    Post by Dogwelder on Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:57 am

    I haven't dived deeply enough into all aspects of the lore to really adhere to one particular point of view, but I found this theory very interesting, with enough evidence backing it up to make it seem like a credible option. Nice job.


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