Moral Dilemma

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    Co-Op with the BB'ers?

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    Moral Dilemma

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:09 pm

    Hey there, I haven't seen this asked yet, but if it has feel free to tell me and redirect me to the proper place.

    So, I've been curious about what others think about BB'ers. I know of course that most are not happy about it, my question though is in regards to helping them out as a phantom. I've seen this every now and then, and though I want my souls and Sunlight Medallion(If I'm on such a character), should I really help them out? And I do mean people that definitely are doing it, one example being me having to help a person through Gargoyles earlier while they had a Mask of the Father and Giants. As well, I was hit once and it definitely was not a person on NG of any kind due to the low damage I received. Should I help these people kill the bosses since, someone else probably will anyway? Should I crystal out and let them know I want nothing to do with this person in case they are looking to grief others/etc? I've been a bit conflicted about this, and I was wondering what your guys' opinions are.
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:14 pm

    I black crystal outta there, they don't need my help so i won't give it frankly.

    I don't understand why they bother to summon people when they have end game weapons and armour..


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:19 pm

    Actually I was helping one with Chaos Demon Black Haired Woman earlier, and with Smough's, Mask of the Father, Black Knight Shield, and a Lightning spear I just couldn't keep them alive. They kept dying to her explosion ability, so I guess some of them do need help.
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Rynn on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:25 pm

    The example you gave sounds like just someone with insanely strong gear, and yeah, helping them isn't a prob...
    I once got summoned to the world of a person with 66K HP... I crystaled outa his world, cheaters don't need help.
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:27 pm

    as has been noted most bb users are not that skilled or are overconfident in their equipment, on my few bb chars i've summoned help because of griefers and for jolly co-operation as when i bb i only bring resources and the weapon/armor im building this char around and really co-op is fun despite equip lvl. plus it makes it easier and faster to get to lvl 40 and 120 for pvp in anorlondo and the kiln.

    p.s please don't hurt me for saying i use the bb glitch:( please?


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:36 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Actually I was helping one with Chaos Demon Black Haired Woman earlier, and with Smough's, Mask of the Father, Black Knight Shield, and a Lightning spear I just couldn't keep them alive. They kept dying to her explosion ability, so I guess some of them do need help.

    frankly if someone is like that i wouldn't say they need help as much as they are beyond help silly


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by IceIfrit666 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:40 pm

    I help.
    Why?
    FREE SOULS!!!1!11ONE1!!!1!
    It helps you with leveling a little and I want souls if I've been sitting there for 45 minutes waiting to be summoned.


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:52 pm

    See I don't support them doing it, but I can see the angle of helping them for the Souls since someone else is just going to do it anyway. But then of course it would come with the idea of me in a small part helping BB glitchers.
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:53 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:Actually I was helping one with Chaos Demon Black Haired Woman earlier, and with Smough's, Mask of the Father, Black Knight Shield, and a Lightning spear I just couldn't keep them alive. They kept dying to her explosion ability, so I guess some of them do need help.

    frankly if someone is like that i wouldn't say they need help as much as they are beyond help silly

    Yeah, that was pretty sad seeing them get hit by it over and over. They even had a DWGR.
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:57 pm

    Tolvo wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:Actually I was helping one with Chaos Demon Black Haired Woman earlier, and with Smough's, Mask of the Father, Black Knight Shield, and a Lightning spear I just couldn't keep them alive. They kept dying to her explosion ability, so I guess some of them do need help.

    frankly if someone is like that i wouldn't say they need help as much as they are beyond help silly

    Yeah, that was pretty sad seeing them get hit by it over and over. They even had a DWGR.

    only one answer to that: For those guys- Look Skyward For the Dark Souls community- Prostration


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Rynn on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:00 pm

    Tolvo wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:Actually I was helping one with Chaos Demon Black Haired Woman earlier, and with Smough's, Mask of the Father, Black Knight Shield, and a Lightning spear I just couldn't keep them alive. They kept dying to her explosion ability, so I guess some of them do need help.

    frankly if someone is like that i wouldn't say they need help as much as they are beyond help silly

    Yeah, that was pretty sad seeing them get hit by it over and over. They even had a DWGR.
    Is it possible they were invincible, so didn't give a crap about dodging?
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:03 pm

    Kujii wrote:
    Is it possible they were invincible, so didn't give a crap about dodging?
    I doubt it, since the died. As well I'm on PSN, is that possible on there as well?
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:04 pm

    Kuji did you miss out a 'thought they' out of your sentence? silly


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by DxV04 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:16 pm

    im not going to vote because its really up to you. say you need the souls and some humanity aren't you going to help them out to help yourself? Its counter productive. Then again its up to you. I approach each summon differently and anyhow if you black crystal out of there how do they know the reason you did it. they might just say why did he leave?
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:00 pm

    I say help them. There really isn't a reason to not help them. To black stone out is just condescending. You're basing the assumption that they will be griefers or have no skills and need the help (not the case in the vast majority of them, from my experience). Or, you are snubbing them because they don't play the way you want them too.

    The only griefing that BBing helps are low-level griefers. Once you get above a certain soul level - it is easy to make a griefing build. You just need to do a lot of farming. And, honestly, I don't see many griefers anymore. I see them more when I PvP (hanging out in well-known PvP areas at a certain SL), but not very often when I PvE. And, I always play online, and almost always am in human form.

    I summon people not because I need help, but because it is fun to coop with others. And, a LOT of BBers are doing it to make toons for PvP; they aren't trying to cheese through it strictly for PvE.

    There are people who use the BB to replace lack of skills, but instead of turning your back to them, maybe help them out and inspire them? You are helping them, they see how good you are, maybe they want to get that good and help others? That's what inspired me to make a couple Coop toons (to help with Anor Londo and New Londo Ruins). I had some people really help me out, so I wanted to pay it forward.

    I strongly disagree with this line of thinking. How do you know they glitched? Sometimes it is easy to tell, but after a certain SL, it is much harder. Also where will you draw the line for helping/leaving? The day people start dictating how the hosts play is the day coop starts to deteriorate.

    FWIW - I played this game without glitching, got my plat without glitching. Everyone should. But after that, I didn't have the patience to grind out new toons. I didn't use the BB glitch to replace skill, just to spend my time playing instead of farming.

    TL;DR: You either want to help others or you don't. Don't place your summon sign if you will just leave if they don't play the game the way you want them to.

    Just my $0.02



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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Midgar on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:04 pm

    Who cares? It gets me souls, I do black crystal incompetent people in CO-OP, ones I have to spam estus flasks for.


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:05 pm

    I sometimes feel like the only person here who loves the bottomless box glitch... its fantastic for roleplaying, Im currently doing a playthrough as knight lautrec the embraced. Dual shotels baby!


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Midgar on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:17 pm

    reim0027 wrote:I say help them. There really isn't a reason to not help them. To black stone out is just condescending. You're basing the assumption that they will be griefers or have no skills and need the help (not the case in the vast majority of them, from my experience). Or, you are snubbing them because they don't play the way you want them too.

    The only griefing that BBing helps are low-level griefers. Once you get above a certain soul level - it is easy to make a griefing build. You just need to do a lot of farming. And, honestly, I don't see many griefers anymore. I see them more when I PvP (hanging out in well-known PvP areas at a certain SL), but not very often when I PvE. And, I always play online, and almost always am in human form.

    I summon people not because I need help, but because it is fun to coop with others. And, a LOT of BBers are doing it to make toons for PvP; they aren't trying to cheese through it strictly for PvE.

    There are people who use the BB to replace lack of skills, but instead of turning your back to them, maybe help them out and inspire them? You are helping them, they see how good you are, maybe they want to get that good and help others? That's what inspired me to make a couple Coop toons (to help with Anor Londo and New Londo Ruins). I had some people really help me out, so I wanted to pay it forward.

    I strongly disagree with this line of thinking. How do you know they glitched? Sometimes it is easy to tell, but after a certain SL, it is much harder. Also where will you draw the line for helping/leaving? The day people start dictating how the hosts play is the day coop starts to deteriorate.

    FWIW - I played this game without glitching, got my plat without glitching. Everyone should. But after that, I didn't have the patience to grind out new toons. I didn't use the BB glitch to replace skill, just to spend my time playing instead of farming.

    TL;DR: You either want to help others or you don't. Don't place your summon sign if you will just leave if they don't play the game the way you want them to.

    Just my $0.02


    This post rules all, I'd rep you if I could. Completely agree though, you can't force someone to play how you want them to. And I'm sorry, but it's pretty ridiculous that people would want me to farm the same weapons/armor/ etc. over and over again on a new character when I can just avoid it and save myself quite a lot of time so I agree on that also. The time I save using the glitch to get those weapons in a jiffy is time I can spend elsewhere doing things that are far more productive then playing Dark Souls.

    Also, congrats on plat, I'm so close but I need 2 more slabs to get platinum. Demon Soul's is god awful to platinum though, I forget which of the ores in Demon's is a extreme pain to get but it takes forever.


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Midgar on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:19 pm

    Wade_Wilson wrote:I sometimes feel like the only person here who loves the bottomless box glitch... its fantastic for roleplaying, Im currently doing a playthrough as knight lautrec the embraced. Dual shotels baby!

    Lol, I love it. You should dual wield pinwheel shields to be a badass silly


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Blazefury on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:32 pm

    Not all BB glitchers are griefers though, you've got to take that into account. Some people played through the game honestly two, three, four times and are focused on PVP, so they cant be arsed anymore. They'll BB glitch all the equip they want and get to SL 120 ASAP. It's easy mode alright, but they're not bothering anyone by doing it.


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:38 pm

    I do absolutely hate griefers, but that is a good point in that these people could just be re-rolling and do not wish to farm or go searching for weapons they've already attained on another toon. I think I'll continue to help them, but I won't just be carrying them. If I see them not even engaging in any combat and just watching every single fight, then of course I'm not going to help them. Unless of course it is a one shot kill enemy, like Havel can be. It is difficult to remember sometimes that there are people that use glitches in neutral manners, given how many farmers and griefers there can be in the game at time. I guess it's the idea of how many good people would you condemn to catch one who is truly wicked? I'll be leaning towards none for the time being. Well thank you guys for the opinions and words, they were pretty interesting and illuminating.
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:51 pm

    Tolvo wrote:I think I'll continue to help them, but I won't just be carrying them. If I see them not even engaging in any combat and just watching every single fight, then of course I'm not going to help them. Unless of course it is a one shot kill enemy, like Havel can be.
    I agree if the host does that (sits back and does nothing ). The phantom's job is to ensure the host doesn't die - even if it means the phantom dies. The host's job is to stay alive first, and to help the fighting phantom second. For the majority of fights, it should be 50:50 - everyone fights. For high risk fights like you mentioned, phantom takes the lead. The host can stay back, get in hits or backstabs when possible, and heal the phantom when needed. In all but extreme cases, the host should never do nothing. The phantom is there to help the host, but to win the level for him.

    At least, that's how I roll.


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:54 pm

    reim0027 wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:I think I'll continue to help them, but I won't just be carrying them. If I see them not even engaging in any combat and just watching every single fight, then of course I'm not going to help them. Unless of course it is a one shot kill enemy, like Havel can be.
    I agree if the host does that (sits back and does nothing ). The phantom's job is to ensure the host doesn't die - even if it means the phantom dies. The host's job is to stay alive first, and to help the fighting phantom second. For the majority of fights, it should be 50:50 - everyone fights. For high risk fights like you mentioned, phantom takes the lead. The host can stay back, get in hits or backstabs when possible, and heal the phantom when needed. In all but extreme cases, the host should never do nothing. The phantom is there to help the host, but to win the level for him.

    At least, that's how I roll.

    Well often I gauge a host to see if they are learning the area, or not. If learning the area, I make it a point to take my time with enemies, show them patterns, and weaknesses. If it's some guy doing a new toon, I'm just going to try and kill everything as fast as I can. Four Kings of course is an exception to this rule haha. I usually do my best to teach other players rather than just kill for them, because what if this person wants to help others or needs to do things on their own.
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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:59 pm

    Right on.


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    Re: Moral Dilemma

    Post by d15-149 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:59 pm

    I started a new toon the other day. I started as a sl 1 pyro and by the time I got to the burg, I must have been about lvl 4 or 6. Just as I pass the area where the Wyvern first lands, I get a message that I'm being invaded. I think, oh great, a BB griefer. Well we finally meet up and the guy drops 99 humanity and 99 twin humanity as I'm dropping fire bombs on him. Never saw the drops till he was dead. Actually felt bad for killing him. I suppose my opinion of the glitch may have been changed a little bit lol.

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