Could the Flame be the SUN?

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    Shkar
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:19 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:
    Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights."

    Fire still exists, however everything is still night. Man uses bonfires at the night in reality to see and also to survive better than to wander in the Darkness.

    THe Endless Nights is reminisant to the fact that the Lord of Sunlight is absent, as one became a firekeeper while another had left Lordran (God of War), leaving none to hold the torch of being the Lord of Sunlight.

    Look at Gwyndolin, Seath, Priscilla, Four Kings, Nito, and other bosses as well as the domains they hold and the creatures and power they weild in this world... they are rather Dark that Light, and even the Chaos world is Darkness only light by vast amount of fire. Only a few specific places have light remaining... a few specific places.

    Sunlight is only seen a few places in this world... Miracles that use to be the powers of such Gods such as Gwynevre, Gwyn, and the God of War... with the Miracles being one of the rarest Spells to Obtain, and one of the most restrained as well to Covenant Specific (Sunlight Spear and Healing Sunlight Miracles past Replenishment).

    Were you merely musing aloud, or should I be looking deeper for an argument?


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by User on Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:59 pm

    It's doesn't really matter, really.

    Of course, you should look and see why lightning is so closely linked to the Sun, instead of fire.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:22 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:It's doesn't really matter, really.

    Of course, you should look and see why lightning is so closely linked to the Sun, instead of fire.



    I can understand it in terms of physics, but lore wise the only connection I can make is that a TON of popular story universes consider lightning a (higher" or "stronger" fire, in a manner of speaking.



    That said, you can rest assured that the question is mulling around in my head. Perhaps my recent streak and history of wacky, improbably, yet strangely possible theories will hold out.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:52 pm

    I think this is a pretty interesting theory. I wonder if, by the sun fading/being extinguished, would the moon's power also fade? Maybe the Age of Man in darkness would actually be an age of magic, should the flame go out and everyone starts utilizing just moon-based magic, if the moon does keep its power.

    If the first flame is in fact the sun, though, it going out wouldn't extinguish all life. We know dragons were around before it and I'd venture to say the Primordial Serpents were around, too.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:02 pm

    SEANB240 wrote:I think this is a pretty interesting theory. I wonder if, by the sun fading/being extinguished, would the moon's power also fade? Maybe the Age of Man in darkness would actually be an age of magic, should the flame go out and everyone starts utilizing just moon-based magic, if the moon does keep its power.

    If the first flame is in fact the sun, though, it going out wouldn't extinguish all life. We know dragons were around before it and I'd venture to say the Primordial Serpents were around, too.

    The Serpents, maybe, but depending on how you look at it, there is every possibility that the flame existed from the very first moment of time. If the dragons existed "before the flame", they wouldn't be alive. The flame CREATED life. That's like saying that dinosaurs existed before there was mass in the universe.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:13 pm

    Shkar wrote:
    The Serpents, maybe, but depending on how you look at it, there is every possibility that the flame existed from the very first moment of time. If the dragons existed "before the flame", they wouldn't be alive. The flame CREATED life. That's like saying that dinosaurs existed before there was mass in the universe.

    In the Age of Ancients,
    The world was unformed, shrouded by fog
    A land of grey crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons

    But then there was Fire
    And with Fire came Disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course... Light and Dark.

    The first flame created the gods and men, but dragons (and the Serpents, methinks) were around from the beginning. It is like that cycle found so often in history, Mythical Age (creation, often from a primordial, abyssal void already inhabited by...things) - Age of Heroes (Gods and humans) - Historical Age (humans).
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:06 pm

    SEANB240 wrote:
    Shkar wrote:
    The Serpents, maybe, but depending on how you look at it, there is every possibility that the flame existed from the very first moment of time. If the dragons existed "before the flame", they wouldn't be alive. The flame CREATED life. That's like saying that dinosaurs existed before there was mass in the universe.

    In the Age of Ancients,
    The world was unformed, shrouded by fog
    A land of grey crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons

    But then there was Fire
    And with Fire came Disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course... Light and Dark.

    The first flame created the gods and men, but dragons (and the Serpents, methinks) were around from the beginning. It is like that cycle found so often in history, Mythical Age (creation, often from a primordial, abyssal void already inhabited by...things) - Age of Heroes (Gods and humans) - Historical Age (humans).

    "There were good guys, but then again, there were great guys as well."

    "Then" doesn't mean the flame came later. I will admit, it seems like it does, I won't argue that. But since life and death came with the flame, that would mean that the dragons and the archtrees are neither alive or dead. With no heat or cold, that implys that either there was no temperature at all (no matter), or that everything was a single temperature, which wouldn't be possible with things moving.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:36 pm

    Shkar wrote:

    "There were good guys, but then again, there were great guys as well."

    "Then" doesn't mean the flame came later. I will admit, it seems like it does, I won't argue that. But since life and death came with the flame, that would mean that the dragons and the archtrees are neither alive or dead. With no heat or cold, that implys that either there was no temperature at all (no matter), or that everything was a single temperature, which wouldn't be possible with things moving.

    No doubt, those things aren't "alive" in the sense that the humans and gods are. I do think, though, that the "then" in this case is temporal, but I could definitely see it your way as well.


    Then, from the Dark, They came,
    and found the Souls of Lords within the flame.

    I think this line is pretty interesting and relevant to the earlier discussion about Gwyn inheriting his title, rather than originating with it. He wouldn't have been born the Lord of Sunlight if he had come from the Dark, or at least, that wouldn't make a lot of sense.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:48 pm

    SEANB240 wrote:
    Shkar wrote:

    "There were good guys, but then again, there were great guys as well."

    "Then" doesn't mean the flame came later. I will admit, it seems like it does, I won't argue that. But since life and death came with the flame, that would mean that the dragons and the archtrees are neither alive or dead. With no heat or cold, that implys that either there was no temperature at all (no matter), or that everything was a single temperature, which wouldn't be possible with things moving.

    No doubt, those things aren't "alive" in the sense that the humans and gods are. I do think, though, that the "then" in this case is temporal, but I could definitely see it your way as well.


    Then, from the Dark, They came,
    and found the Souls of Lords within the flame.

    I think this line is pretty interesting and relevant to the earlier discussion about Gwyn inheriting his title, rather than originating with it. He wouldn't have been born the Lord of Sunlight if he had come from the Dark, or at least, that wouldn't make a lot of sense.

    I'll lay down what I personally think that means.

    From the dark means underground. Not "Ash Lake" Underground, but Izalith underground. Izalith, New Londo, whatever city was under the hydra lake; all of them were underground. Anor Londo is the only one that we can see in game that is ABOVE ground. So obviously humans are either instinctively OK with living underground, or they did and the cities are just used still.

    As for his title, I have the feeling that he earned it after the humans and similar races managed to claim the surface from the dragons. What they had basically earned, was the sunlight. Why NOT take that title?


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by TheLolrider on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:25 am

    It's almost like the argument has shifted from sun=first flame to sun > first flame.

    The physical location of the Kiln of the First Flame would suggest that the first flame was a physical phenomena that occurred on, or in, the earth (what's the name of the planet, anyway?) rather than being a metaphor for the sun. That does beg an interesting question concerning Gwyn's title, but remember, people sometimes get titles that aren't literal.

    Or it could be literally the sun and it originated from the earth and rose up. That seems a little farfetched, but who knows.

    On a different note, the age of dark doesn't have to be taken literally. You've said it yourself, many of the gods are associated with the sun in some form or another. The age of dark could simply be an age without gods.

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