Could the Flame be the SUN?

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    Shkar
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    Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:46 pm

    That's it, no twist. The sun is as close to a "First Flame" for our world as there is, and can you actually imagine any other flame that could create "light and darkness, heat and cold, and life and death"?

    If you want some actual in-game lore that supports this theory:

    "But soon, the flames will fade, and only Dark will remain.Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights."

    "Gwyn, "Lord of Sunlight", who is the one who steps up and links the fire."

    "In the war that marked the dawn of the Age of Fire, Gwyn wielded these rays of sunlight, which remains fierce even as they fade."


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:39 am

    First

    I'm still leaning towards the afterlife idea, but it's possible. The strange thing to me is that lightning seems to represent the sun in this world, not fire. So I'm not entirely sure about that. Why would the power of the flame of the sun, give him lightning abilities? I know that linking the flame turned him into the lord of cinder, but all in all the two just don't seem very related to me. Not to mention, you are talking about space travel.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:21 pm

    Really? Nobody has any thoughts on this? I thought I would at least get people saying that I'm a maniac for thinking of this.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:23 pm

    I guess I'm nobody. sad
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:33 pm

    "First" is not an opinion! sad


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:40 pm

    You never highlighted the post?
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:56 pm

    ...

    In response to your response, in the opening we see that the world used to be shrouded in fog and clouds. Combine that with the ash from the witches/dragons creates an environment that would be ripe with lightning. Perhaps they didn't know the Sun existed until they found the kiln.

    Anyway, I still find it strange that Gwyn's Sunlight Spears fade as the flame does. Implies some kind of connection.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:57 pm

    His Sunlight spears fade when he relights the flame, meaning the two actually seem to not be related. More so it seems that he can't have the power of the flame with the power of lightning, the sun. So I'd say that connection actually goes against your idea.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:09 pm

    His Spears are said to be equal to Logan's Soul Spears, and they ARE roughly equal. So whatever fading has occurred is relatively slight, implying that it has started "recently". If I recall, Gwyn linked the fire A long time ago, so it implies to me that it's related to the flame fading and NOT to Gwyn linking the flame.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:13 pm

    Here's a big issue, Lord of Sunlight, yet when gaining the power of the Kiln, he became the Lord of Cinder. If you are already the lord of something that is considered to be more powerful, and gain the lighter version of it, why would your title become something which would be considered lesser? The flame, strikes me as something more important than the sun because of this. Ring of the Sun's Firstborn even makes it sound like Gwyn was viewed as the Sun already, so why would people speak of him with a different title if he already had the power of something greater?
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:27 pm

    Who GAVE him his new title? It seems like it is only a few beings who know what happened to him (general consensus seems to be that his tomb was meant to conceal what he did). His new title could just be an in-game thing (not lore).

    That said, the kiln (and the flane "on earth") could be a sort of Avatar of the sun. Distance could mean everything in regard to it's power. Heck, in real life you would get much worse then sun burn if you got too close.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:33 pm

    Light, seems to have importance to Gwyn's family. If you notice each one has importance to either Sunlight, or in Dolin's case moonlight. But, there is also a Flame God, Flann. A good question is, why is Lord of Cinders so important? Another important matter, Gwyn was the Lord of Sunlight before finding the first flame. If you notice it mentions that Gwyn, Lord of Sunlight found a Lord's Soul. It doesn't say that Gwyn found it and became the Lord of Sunlight, it was already his title. Gaining the power of the Lord's Soul which was of the flame didn't seem to cause him to lose his Spears. I'd say if anything, the reason for the loss is his loss of faith possibly.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:45 pm

    His title could have just been applied retroactively. However, it also shows him throwing normal lightning spears in the intro (IIRC), not SL spears. His SL spears are definitely more powerful then the normal lightning spear his knights used, so It follows logically that the extra power is from these Lord Souls that are so important.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:48 pm

    In the opening cinema, he has the power of the Lord's when hurling those spears. So if you are saying the spears he is using is related to his spears, again iy goes against the fire as a boon to the sunlight. With that idea, the power of Lord's weakened his lightning.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:05 pm

    Great, now I can't remember if he WAS using the yellow bolts or not in the cinematic. Unless you can check, I can't respond to that point until I get to WiFi.

    Mind if we move on to the "eternal night" part until then?


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:08 pm

    They're orange, just checked.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:16 pm

    So then he IS using the actual Sunlight Spear. So the act of getting the lord soul, at least, didn't weaken his bolts.

    Which, actually, would have made me wonder why he didn't spread the soul to his army.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:18 pm

    I'm pretty sure their bolts are orange too, let me check again.

    Yep, all of the Silver Knights with him have orange lightning bolts.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:35 pm

    So, I see a few ways that could be possible:

    1. They are using regular ones and the lightning messed itbup.
    2. The CGI team messed up.
    3. The Knight race don't need Gwyn's Soul to cast it, just the actual power.
    4. Gwyn can grant the ability without using up his soul.
    5. Gwyn is "multi-boxing" the knights, who are golems. (explains why they are basically mindleas once he's gone)


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:39 pm

    Though remember, faith is also directly related with that spell, so even the hopelessness of a world without the flame could have in an indirect manner, caused their loss of the ability. Maybe a dwindling of belief in Gwyn, since he was considered to be dead supposedly. It's an interesting concept none the less.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:47 pm

    His knights (even the silver ones) don't use any spells. They don't even use much in the way of tactics. It's as if Gwyndolin (or someone else, I suppose) took control and was only able to tell them to guard some place, so they rely solely on instinct and reflexes.


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:51 pm

    Or considering how many of them are illusions, or the fact that they could be hollow now. It's sort of left open to many interpretations, so I think it's definitely a case of, "Let's just list the possibilities, and everyone pick one that they wish to believe." Similar to the GoW.

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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Spurgun on Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:02 pm

    The sun is the god of war. When he the sun was fading, he channeled his power to become a new sun. Now he watches over his warriors from the sky.
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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Shkar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:07 pm

    @Tolvo - Isn't only one of the knights an illusion? Can non-humans actually BECOME hollows? I thought undeath was basically human only.

    @Spur - I find that unlikely, but I'm willing to go with it to debate it. Why is the sun fading then?


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    Re: Could the Flame be the SUN?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:08 pm

    Gwyn is hollow if you pay attention to his face.

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