Skill Imbalance

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    Slarg232
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Slarg232 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:11 pm

    Honestly, when I see comma's, everywhere, I read it, as though, Christopher Walken, is talking.



    As to the OP, Every game does something like this, to allow newer players a way to break themselves into the game.


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:26 pm

    Slarg232 wrote:Every game does something like this, to allow newer players a way to break themselves into the game.

    they do and if anything its these things which should be considered as
    easy mode not the use of the only ring which allows you to combat
    them successfully
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Slarg232 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:31 pm

    omega Elf wrote:
    Slarg232 wrote:Every game does something like this, to allow newer players a way to break themselves into the game.

    they do and if anything its these things which should be considered as
    easy mode not the use of the only ring which allows you to combat
    them successfully



    They are easy mode. That's why New players flock to use them, as intended.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Jansports on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:16 pm

    I wrote a too long post that was devoured by my idiot laptop.

    in the following when I say "thing" I am referencing any particular thing, whether it be spear turtling, DWGR, Family masks, the wonderous 77 poise of 3 piece giants Havels, FaP, BSes, WoG ANYTHING can be "thing" so long as anyone has ever thought it was making the game easier for themselves or someone else.

    Point the first. Using "thing" can make the game easier.

    point the second. Using "thing" does not accurately determine skill.

    point the third Only performance and results can accurately determine skill

    point the fourth There are skilled and unskilled users of "thing"

    point the fifth There are skilled and unskilled non-users of "thing"

    It doesn't really matter all that much.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:26 pm

    I agree with you jansports, but i think out of all the "things" DWGR stands out the most.


    Last edited by FruitPunchNinja on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by DarkW17 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:12 pm

    ICEFANG wrote:
    DarkW17 wrote:
    omega Elf wrote:
    ICEFANG wrote:I dunno I beat all those just fine with no poise and no DWGR, maybe its just me. Only lag is what makes Backstabs very dangerous, and I think Stun Lock is totally a great part of the game. Spears require thought to beat, more than they probably require to play, but what are you complaining about? I think DWGR is stupid, but removing it wouldn't be a detriment to one side or the other, probably both sides equally.

    With no poise, and poor defense (I assume), how then, do you deal,
    with a reasonably skilled, Dragon Slayer Spear, user, spamming r1 -
    stun-locking you, being evasive, & going for back-stabs?

    Just like i did here thats how http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9JVnARmkZo

    How does that tree trunk work? I don't see a reason to use it over the Large Club, whats it like? I don't have much heavy heavy weapon experience

    There is no reason to use it over the large the club as the LC has the better moveset/poison dmg/close AR ect...the only reason would be to be able to OHKO high lvl forest gankers...as the LC often falls just a bit short from a OHKO when they have 2400 vit lol!!!


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:41 pm

    Jansports wrote:I wrote a too long post that was devoured by my idiot laptop.

    in the following when I say "thing" I am referencing any particular thing, whether it be spear turtling, DWGR, Family masks, the wonderous 77 poise of 3 piece giants Havels, FaP, BSes, WoG ANYTHING can be "thing" so long as anyone has ever thought it was making the game easier for themselves or someone else.

    Point the first. Using "thing" can make the game easier.

    point the second. Using "thing" does not accurately determine skill.

    point the third Only performance and results can accurately determine skill

    point the fourth There are skilled and unskilled users of "thing"

    point the fifth There are skilled and unskilled non-users of "thing"

    It doesn't really matter all that much.

    i still believe the dwgr is required to maintain balance however looking at
    my original post what i was trying to say may have been misconstrued
    you could use any of the things i listed it doesn't mean your a bad player it
    really depends on who your fighting for example i never backstab players
    that appear inexperienced as its just too easy though against players with
    some experience i could go all-out to back-stab them and just get completely
    owned and so for me easy mode just means easy to pick up by new players
    and be reasonably successful with against other less experienced players
    but obviously to be good with them against good players takes skill
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Slarg232 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:07 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:I agree with you jasports, but i think out of all the "things" DWGR stands out the most.



    I would have to disagree with that. The DWGR completely destroys the idea of armor balance. I mean, if you had someone in Shadow Gear or Painting Guardian stuff flipping around, that's fine. But to see Giant Armor/Stone Armor/Havel's Armor flipping around like that...... That's just stupid.

    Actually, I think if they kept the flip part of it, and just got rid of the entirity of the Equip Load part, it would be perfectly fine.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:55 pm

    by stands out, i meant it was the most unbalanced. So you agree with me? I honestly just think they should take it out of the game, i think fromsoft even realizes this to be honest. It would be very weird if it was just taken out though. Theres really not a perfect way to "fix" it, my main issues are the ability to stack poise and the i-frames. If it lost its equip weight bonus people would still use it, most likely with havels. That would be better then how it is now though. It obviously needs some type of nerf.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Jansports on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:01 pm

    I think the DWGR magnifies a problem within the poise system itself. Most of the time I feel the ring is turned to so that one of the breakpoints can be reached without losing the speed offered by "light" burden levels. This problem is only further magnified by heavier armors also having better defence values.

    If you could reach 53 poise with say the PG set, or if the Black Cleric robe had a solid 20 poise, or the defensively wimpy black leather set had the same poise as the paladin set, would droping the ~100ish physical resistences bother you that much?

    I feel much much more than the defence offered by heavy armor it's the poise people are after, It's somewhat telling that one of the more popular replacments for the DWGR on fast rollers is the wolf ring, as I know myself and a few others know off hand exactly which pieces are optimal in otder to hit 76/53 poise with the wolf ring.

    But this is perhaps an entirely other discussion.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:18 pm

    omega - please use punctuation in your posts.

    And guys, you took it too far by making fun of his punctuation. I'm guessing English is not omega's primary language.


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:23 pm

    I would actually prefer if the next game went back to how it was with demons souls, no poise system and the armor was all basically the same stats except slightly different. It makes armor more of a non issue, but hey i liked it that way.

    Maybe have it so if you had heavy guantlets on you could tank a light weapon attack, guantlets and leggings you can tank pole arms,spears, and katana attacks. leggings,guants,helm(or chest) you could tank a greatsword attack, and then a full set of heavy armor you could tank an ultra greatsword attack. Or something along those lines. Its obviously would take a lot more work to balance it then the 2seconds i just spent thinking about it.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by martyrsbrigade99 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:14 pm

    omega Elf wrote:There are particular weapons/techniques, in pvp, which require, very
    little, skill investment, to be, successful with. Whilst, to be successful,
    against them, often requires, an unbalanced (far higher level), of skill.

    examples:
    1. Spears
    2. Back-stabs
    3. Stun-lock

    To effectively (and consistently), counter, these threats, (besides
    obvious skill) you require - high poise, high defense, and high mobility.
    More so - high mobility (the ability, to dodge, and to evade), though
    high poise & high defense, are also, very much required, to perform,
    many counters.

    And therefore, it can be concluded, that to counter, the imbalance,
    brought on, by such threats, a similar "imbalance", is required, hence -
    the dwgr.


    The only reason I disagree with your logic is because I've done several videos where I'm faced against all of the things that you consider to be "imbalances" and I didn't need the ring to do it. However, if the DWGR helps to give you better results, go for it!


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Slarg232 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:01 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:by stands out, i meant it was the most unbalanced. So you agree with me? I honestly just think they should take it out of the game, i think fromsoft even realizes this to be honest. It would be very weird if it was just taken out though. Theres really not a perfect way to "fix" it, my main issues are the ability to stack poise and the i-frames. If it lost its equip weight bonus people would still use it, most likely with havels. That would be better then how it is now though. It obviously needs some type of nerf.



    Oh :oops:

    Yes, I agree with you.



    By equip bonus, I meant the 50% is considered Light and the small boost to equip load. Even with Havels Ring/MoF, most builds are 28% or so Burdened, which would mean medium move speed. I think.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:04 am

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:by stands out, i meant it was the most unbalanced. So you agree with me? I honestly just think they should take it out of the game

    Your arguments against the ring are many you need to be more specific
    in your arguments and state exactly what it is about the ring you find
    so imbalanced. The only thing I see which could possibly be considered
    broken is the equip load, I would have no problems with it's equip bonus
    being nerfed I would still reach the vital poise breakpoints necessary
    even if that meant pvping on an sl that's 20 or even 40 levels higher.

    You can't nerf the dwgr i-frames that's just stupid that is practically the
    whole point to the ring that and distance and speed it's why you flip
    around it's a ninja ability, try roll-backstabbing a good spear user or
    evading a good wog spammer using fast-roll, it can be done perhaps
    even easily if your skilled enough but the skill required is out of all
    proportion to the one who's spamming wog or poke poke poking you,
    which means that at the top level where both players are at maximum
    skill the fight would always be too one sided.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:30 am

    omega Elf wrote:
    FruitPunchNinja wrote:by stands out, i meant it was the most unbalanced. So you agree with me? I honestly just think they should take it out of the game

    Your arguments against the ring are many you need to be more specific
    in your arguments and state exactly what it is about the ring you find
    so imbalanced. The only thing I see which could possibly be considered
    broken is the equip load, I would have no problems with it's equip bonus
    being nerfed I would still reach the vital poise breakpoints necessary
    even if that meant pvping on an sl that's 20 or even 40 levels higher.

    You can't nerf the dwgr i-frames that's just stupid that is practically the
    whole point to the ring that and distance and speed it's why you flip
    around it's a ninja ability, try roll-backstabbing a good spear user or
    evading a good wog spammer using fast-roll, it can be done perhaps
    even easily if your skilled enough but the skill required is out of all
    proportion to the one who's spamming wog or poke poke poking you,
    which means that at the top level where both players are at maximum
    skill the fight would always be too one sided.

    No it wouldn't.... if your getting WoG spammed, just grab some magic resistance..... If your getting poked, Turtle and when they run out of stamina charge them.

    There are ways to counter everything, just because your so reliant on one doesn't mean others don't exist.....


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Juutas on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:00 am

    I don't believe that fromsoft ever intended the ring to have that equipload decrease, it makes 0 sense to me. Removing the effect on equipload it would be perfect. Maybe people could still flip in semi heavy armor, BUT they would need to sacrifice another ringslot for Havel's ring when the lightarmored guys could be using some other kickass rings like red tear and rofap. No more flipping hornet using tanks.


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by DarkW17 on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:16 am

    ........When will it ever end....I'm pretty sure at this point the cow has been beaten so many theres nothing even left of the poor thing.......continue tho I think were making progress here......


    Edit I think the tiny being's ring is so broken....don't even get me started 🤡


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:21 am

    ^ it would be a very good nerf. I was trying to make a flipping mom tank, but a lot of those players would have to use mask of the father, wolf, havels, rofap(if they wanted to pump end or only use rapier). Thats good enough for me.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by DarkW17 on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:28 am

    I know right that thing is so OP, when I see someone using it I just wanna BS them and ruin there day..........the tiny beings ring should be Froms focus if they nerf anything :shock:


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:35 am

    Yea i can't stand it when that silly ring saves them. IF ONLY THEY DIDN'T HAVE THAT EXTRA 20HP!
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by DarkW17 on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:48 am

    Like if they didn't have it on that last chaos blade swing that could have killed me would have killed them.....derp!!!!


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Rifter7 on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:49 am

    are you william shatner op?


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:53 am

    I'd personally have no problem going with 31 poise although likewise fast-rollers
    should be nerfed to a maximum of 53. Spears & the Hornet Ring would also need
    to be addressed.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:58 am

    omega Elf wrote:I'd personally have no problem going with 31 poise although likewise fast-rollers
    should be nerfed to a maximum of 53. Spears & the Hornet Ring would also need
    to be addressed.

    Why do Spears and the Hornet Ring need to be addressed? Not trying to be confrontational, just wondering.

    I've found Hornet Ring users are easily countered via quick casting spells (Fire Surge, Combustion), as they can't parry them, and if you do it right they can't get at your back, leaving them a terrible, terrible weapon.

    Spears are easily countered with Fireball.


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