Skill Imbalance

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    DarkW17
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by DarkW17 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:33 pm

    omega Elf wrote:
    ICEFANG wrote:I dunno I beat all those just fine with no poise and no DWGR, maybe its just me. Only lag is what makes Backstabs very dangerous, and I think Stun Lock is totally a great part of the game. Spears require thought to beat, more than they probably require to play, but what are you complaining about? I think DWGR is stupid, but removing it wouldn't be a detriment to one side or the other, probably both sides equally.

    With no poise, and poor defense (I assume), how then, do you deal,
    with a reasonably skilled, Dragon Slayer Spear, user, spamming r1 -
    stun-locking you, being evasive, & going for back-stabs?

    Just like i did here thats how http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9JVnARmkZo Well What is it


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:03 pm

    Federally wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:i don't get the aim of the op.. is it a rip on the dwgr :?: is it a comment on why people use certain equipment, or need to :?: is it the fact that even though we say skill beats all, it's undeniable that your win rate will increase using certain equipment :?:

    i'm confused, it doesn't seem to make up it's mind

    Omega has been a bit DWGR obsessed lately. It seems he doesn't like people not liking it and he.

    @Omega a really good player with a DSS is the closest thing to unbeatable there is in this game.
    Hello! silly
    Seriously why are we still paying attention to this guy?


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:34 am

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:Everyone knows... that you don't "need" DWGR to win against anything. All it does is make a lot of things easier, which is why i call it easy mode... you should really put more thought into your posts... people in forums will pick apart everything you say.

    YOU have fast-roll ("hard-mode?") - using good armor (full giants)
    & a spear; You spam r1 (mostly) - though you have other weapons
    you casually throw-in for variety (to alleviate the boredom); These
    are - a claymore (stun-lock), and wog. You also have a Spider
    Shield (heck, why not), and are partial to back-stabbing (overkill?)

    Your opponent has ninja-flip - using nothing but a composite bow,
    quite literally bo**ock naked - though, on occasions, he wears full
    Giants also (to make things easier).

    Who then, in your opinion, is using easy mode?

    Would the archer switching to fast-roll - address the balance of
    power - and thus, make the fight fair?

    Should we all just start using spears and fast roll so as not to make
    the game too p**Sing easy?


    Last edited by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:06 pm

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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:09 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:

    Exactly my sentiment. You have no argument.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:14 pm

    yup xD
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:16 pm

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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by ICEFANG on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:19 pm

    DarkW17 wrote:
    omega Elf wrote:
    ICEFANG wrote:I dunno I beat all those just fine with no poise and no DWGR, maybe its just me. Only lag is what makes Backstabs very dangerous, and I think Stun Lock is totally a great part of the game. Spears require thought to beat, more than they probably require to play, but what are you complaining about? I think DWGR is stupid, but removing it wouldn't be a detriment to one side or the other, probably both sides equally.

    With no poise, and poor defense (I assume), how then, do you deal,
    with a reasonably skilled, Dragon Slayer Spear, user, spamming r1 -
    stun-locking you, being evasive, & going for back-stabs?

    Just like i did here thats how http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9JVnARmkZo

    How does that tree trunk work? I don't see a reason to use it over the Large Club, whats it like? I don't have much heavy heavy weapon experience


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:38 pm

    I did a cosplay as ornstein, and I focused on STR/DEX/END/VIT for the first 90 levels. Having only a spear, no shield, taught me a lot. At first I didn't think the spear was good, but then realized it was excellent, but I think it does require skill to use.

    I would say the best way to beat a spear user is to force them to come to you. For myself, I always had to backpedal with a spear while slowly wearing them down. If I was poisoned, then I was in a pickle. I'd have to take a moss, allowing me to get hit at the least, BS at the worst. Or I'd have to move forward attacking, and the other person could use a bit of lag to come in and BS me, or constantly back pedal themselves.

    So I think the secret in a 1 on 1 fight is to force the spear user to come to you, regardless of how you do it. Dung pies, poison of various sources, crossbow if they are 2H a spear, and a shield if they are 1H a spear.

    I think another reason the spear might be stronger is with the no healing rule; if you allow healing, the distance a spear user wants to be makes it difficult to punish someone healing with a BS.


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by roanispe on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:39 pm

    omega Elf wrote:Exactly my sentiment. You have no argument.
    You will never stop, will you?:


    Here is a useful chart of logical fallacies, and, please before accusing others of lacking an argument, examine your own. As well, it seems you type your posts in a word document before, and when you paste it, the format is retained; try pasting into a text document beforehand to remove the invisible characters.

    I am sure you'll find a way to see the entire chart:



    Generally speaking, you make many assertions, but fail to prove to them. It's not tautological, but axiomatic principles you use to state your position. Even if you believe something to be self-evident, like the 'DWGR is a powerful ring', state it explicitly if it's the foundation of your argument, like the 'DWGR gives enhanced mobility, and defence, which makes it a better than other single-purpose rings'. You are also being very accusatory, and stating other people lack an argument, or skill. Instead of making statements, provide evidence. If you think someone lacks an argument, point out the vacuity of the post, and if you think someone doesn't have any skill (whatever that nebulous concept could be) point out what parts of their post make you think they don't have enough experience, or knowledge about the game. In all sincerity, please focus on construction, rather than confrontation; you don't prove anything with an Ad Hominem.


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:42 pm

    I take offense to that post Roan.

    That Strawman picture/description seems to portray my kind in a rather negative light.

    I got nothin' else on any of this.......

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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:49 pm

    No, i just type in here, what is your point??
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by dannyhugz on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:09 pm

    Did, anyone else, read, the OP, while pausing, in your mind, at, every comma?


    Last edited by dannyhugz on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by ICEFANG on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:13 pm

    No I just zoom through them, I got used to reading terribly written and/or poorly punctuated stuff already. He just keeps talking in one long credibly unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic so that no one had a chance to interrupt it was really quite hypnotic.


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:13 pm

    dannyhugz wrote:Did, anyone else, read, the OP, while pausing, in you mind, at, every comma?

    What, is, your, point?
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by dannyhugz on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:15 pm

    GRAMMAR NAZI IS MY POINT! >;O

    lol!

    I'm at work and insanely bored, sue me XD <3


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 pm

    This, post, is, turning, into a troll-fest - stay, on, topic...ff,s! or
    i will, have, you, forcefully removed >from, this thread! ty
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by ICEFANG on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:21 pm

    Drops in the water bucket, or barrel.


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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:48 pm

    On topic I imagine using a spear to spear fish in a barrel would be considered a n00b tactic.....

    Unless the fish have the Bieber Ring

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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:53 pm

    there are very obviously things in this game which are very easy to be
    successful with in pvp and which i believe would be made even easier
    if players were to sacrifice the mobility offered by the dwgr
    its like i said earlier the ripple effect you take one thing out and you effect
    a whole lot of other things which very well could make the game too hard
    and unbalanced for those who currently choose the dwgr option
    using weapons and playstyles that rely on it


    Last edited by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:10 pm

    There are very few benefits to not using the dwgr, i will agree that if you are able to pvp with low poise and less i-frames you can use that ring slot for a dmg boosting ring. Which in turn will allow you to do a lot more dmg, which can be seen as a benefit to fast roll/low poise. Its a very hard to say that not using dwgr is an advantage however, cause there are very few things you can do without dwgr that you can't do with it.

    I think i kinda get what you were trying to say though. Example, if someone had low poise/0poise and was using dwgr and was faced against someone with fast roll and 53 poise. Who would have the upper hand? I agree that, under those circumstances, the fast roller would have an advantage. Its just kind of irrelevant, because most people who use dwgr do so to get the bonus of being able to have high poise and equip weight. The Samurai VS Ninja thing ROOSTER is doing will actually be a good test at seeing just how much of a benefit just the additional i-frames and equip weight will be. Without having the benefit of high poise.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Jansports on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:21 pm

    From the standpoint of investment to returns there are two weapon types I feel (personally) that are more rewarding to learn how to use well. That is to say like Omega I believe the level of skill and practice it takes to overcome these particular weapons is larger than the amount of practice needed to use them effectively.

    Spears, which I will be one of the first to admit have both a high skill ceiling and are entirely surmountable in PvP. But it isn't the skill ceiling that's concerning, it's the floor. The MINIMUM amount of effort and skill one needs to put forth to be "pretty good at winning duels" with a spear is quite low. Why? Many people have issues with spears, it is more difficult to learn to play against them than with them at the more basic levels.

    Rapier(s) Really I just mean the Rapier itself, as with what I'm about to explain there is little reason to use any other weapon. Hornet's. I think everyone now understands where I am going. There are two-three skills you need to learn before this will work for you. #1 Roll BS #2 Poise tank BS #3 backstep counter BS.

    Congrats! you do a lot of damage with every hit. The issue here is different than with spears. It's not that learning to Roll BS or counter BS is 'more easy' than other tactics, rather it's that Roll BS and poise tank BS are so trandferable. WoG? Roll BS. Spear? Roll BS MLGS? yeah yeah yeah. Buffed/unbuffed Straight Sword, greatsword, curved sword, great curved sword, most axes, polearms. Poise Tank.

    You get a lot of mileage out of a small skill set because those skills translate well into nearly every fight you might find yourself in, and lets be honest when you're Hornet's BSing with a fully upgraded Rapier it doesn't take much time to finish the fight.
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:41 pm

    wog-spammers don't benefit a great deal from i-frames or equip weight whilst
    those being woged do benefit greatly but not so much that the balance of skill is
    completely one sided i believe its more balanced
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by omega Elf on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:03 pm

    Jansports wrote:From the standpoint of investment to returns there are two weapon types I feel (personally) that are more rewarding to learn how to use well. That is to say like Omega I believe the level of skill and practice it takes to overcome these particular weapons is larger than the amount of practice needed to use them effectively.

    Spears, which I will be one of the first to admit have both a high skill ceiling and are entirely surmountable in PvP. But it isn't the skill ceiling that's concerning, it's the floor. The MINIMUM amount of effort and skill one needs to put forth to be "pretty good at winning duels" with a spear is quite low. Why? Many people have issues with spears, it is more difficult to learn to play against them than with them at the more basic levels.

    Rapier(s) Really I just mean the Rapier itself, as with what I'm about to explain there is little reason to use any other weapon. Hornet's. I think everyone now understands where I am going. There are two-three skills you need to learn before this will work for you. #1 Roll BS #2 Poise tank BS #3 backstep counter BS.

    Congrats! you do a lot of damage with every hit. The issue here is different than with spears. It's not that learning to Roll BS or counter BS is 'more easy' than other tactics, rather it's that Roll BS and poise tank BS are so trandferable. WoG? Roll BS. Spear? Roll BS MLGS? yeah yeah yeah. Buffed/unbuffed Straight Sword, greatsword, curved sword, great curved sword, most axes, polearms. Poise Tank.

    You get a lot of mileage out of a small skill set because those skills translate well into nearly every fight you might find yourself in, and lets be honest when you're Hornet's BSing with a fully upgraded Rapier it doesn't take much time to finish the fight.

    I'm pretty good at avoiding being back-stabbed on my katana build
    even against two players fishing which although I've put allot of
    practice into this its largely down to the dwgr without which I have no
    doubt i would get back-stabbed significantly more often

    does that mean I'm using an easy mode which makes the game somehow
    easier for me than my backstabbing opponents? I don't think so
    the amount of skill it still requires for me to avoid being back-stabbed
    whilst still be offensive in relation to the skill required to back-stab me
    from my experience seems pretty well balanced
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    Re: Skill Imbalance

    Post by Pesth on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:11 pm

    omega Elf wrote:wog-spammers don't benefit a great deal from i-frames or equip weight whilst
    those being woged do benefit greatly but not so much that the balance of skill is
    completely one sided i believe its more balanced

    I think WOG is one of the easiest spells to dodge, you just need to roll in any direction :suspect:


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