"pyromancies don't need any stats"

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    "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Rifter7 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:55 am

    seen that a lot. thought it was kind of funny.. so i'm going to rant here for a bit.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynX3nOHDhCA

    pyromancies don't need any stats, sure... but why wouldn't you bump dex up to at least 30.. realistically 40, let a lone 45?

    i mean sure on paper they don't need anything... but in game that fcr is very important... so yeah, when you compare pyromancies to other spell trees, please consider the fact that they're much better with invested points into dexterity.

    rant comprete.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by cloudyeki on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:57 am

    Don't forget you originally had to level your pyromancy flame instead. So THAT was the original balance, with miracles and sorcery getting the added bonuses of leveling you up and getting the defense bonus.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by lordgodofhell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:59 am


    45 Dex Pyros ftw!

    I notice quite a difference between base Dex and 45 Dex casts. Often times my Dex weapon guy will use pyro as a back up since the two seem to gel so nicely.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:46 am

    Wait what??? .50 seconds difference for Soul Arrow!!!??? That's a lot! Now I want a 45 Dex pure mage.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:50 am

    1) 45 dex is unnecessary.
    2) 45 dex gives you other benefits if you choose to use it like giving you a free weapon stat. You were gonna level str or dex anyway, this way you just get an additional bonus from one.
    3) WHile you do have to level your glove, it doesnt become harder to level if you level other stuff and using it doesnt affect your effective soul level.
    4) The fact the bonus applies to miracles and sorceries too means that this isnt a pyro specific cost and thus doesnt prove your point.
    (Not trying to sound harsh but when I do list based arguments it always ends up like that)


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:52 am

    And fireball is only .14 seconds faster with 45 Dex. WTF?


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Rifter7 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:54 am

    soul arrows are good in 2v2's if you're the phantom. they're not good, they're great actually.
    they're decent damage, very spammable and it either forces the enemies to
    a. back off and attack you
    b. roll which lets the host punish
    c. lmao, get hit repeatedly
    when you're focused that's a different story.
    unlike soulspear, you have much more casts so you can be aggressive with them and keep the pressure on invaders, and they'll last thru multiple waves of invaders.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Rifter7 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:01 am

    DoughGuy wrote:1) 45 dex is unnecessary.
    2) 45 dex gives you other benefits if you choose to use it like giving you a free weapon stat. You were gonna level str or dex anyway, this way you just get an additional bonus from one.
    3) WHile you do have to level your glove, it doesnt become harder to level if you level other stuff and using it doesnt affect your effective soul level.
    4) The fact the bonus applies to miracles and sorceries too means that this isnt a pyro specific cost and thus doesnt prove your point.
    (Not trying to sound harsh but when I do list based arguments it always ends up like that)

    haha don't worry, i'm not crying.
    1) nothing is necessary in this game. if you want to utilize the highest fcr tho, you'll need 45 dex.
    2) yes it does... so does faith and magic. there's scaling weapons for both attributes.
    3) yeah i don't consider the glove a requirement.. aren't most of us using bbg mules anyways?
    4) it's arguable to say that aside from wotg, pyromancies will enjoy the most benefits from high dex.
    (if someone can't handle their opinions and points being discussed then they shouldn't post it.happy)


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:06 am

    Rifter7 wrote:haha don't worry, i'm not crying.
    1) nothing is necessary in this game. if you want to utilize the highest fcr tho, you'll need 45 dex.
    2) yes it does... so does faith and magic. there's scaling weapons for both attributes.
    3) yeah i don't consider the glove a requirement.. aren't most of us using bbg mules anyways?
    4) it's arguable to say that aside from wotg, pyromancies will enjoy the most benefits from high dex.
    (if someone can't handle their opinions and points being discussed then they shouldn't post it.happy)
    1) Exactly, but its perfectly viable to pyro with 9 dex, and it can be better for some spells.
    2) With pyro I can easily have a 40/40 build. Int and Fth cant have those without sacrifice. The scales weapons are also inferior. In fact the only advantage they have here is buffs.
    3) That helps my point. Now you arent even spending souls on the glove, you are taking the only cost for pyromancy away.
    4) Not sure WoG does benefit, but the lightning spears benefit a lot.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Rifter7 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:22 am

    DoughGuy wrote:
    1) Exactly, but its perfectly viable to pyro with 9 dex, and it can be better for some spells.
    2) With pyro I can easily have a 40/40 build. Int and Fth cant have those without sacrifice. The scales weapons are also inferior. In fact the only advantage they have here is buffs.
    3) That helps my point. Now you arent even spending souls on the glove, you are taking the only cost for pyromancy away.
    4) Not sure WoG does benefit, but the lightning spears benefit a lot.

    1)gc will hit less frequently, possibly even miss a parry.. gcf leaves more time for you to get backstabbed. what spell are you talking about?
    2)int and faith can have weapon buffs.. i know that's not the same thing, but i mean.. come on. also, the mlgs and dss are great int and faith scaling weapons..
    3)can we drop point three lol? it hasn't been an issue since everyone found out about the dragonhead glitch 2 weeks after release XD.
    4)wotg benefits from fcr.. im to lazy to find my proof.. and yeah you're right, lightning spells are effected. so are the soulspears, arrows and mass. the difference is that these spells usually aren't cast within immediate roll stab distance or they're cast during an attack.. where gc and sometimes gcf are cast point blank or at a progressing enemy..

    those are my tactics tho, not fact. i'm sure there's some poor soul out there that spams lightning spear/css pointblank at invaders..


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:33 am

    Rifter7 wrote:1)gc will hit less frequently, possibly even miss a parry.. gcf leaves more time for you to get backstabbed. what spell are you talking about?
    2)int and faith can have weapon buffs.. i know that's not the same thing, but i mean.. come on. also, the mlgs and dss are great int and faith scaling weapons..
    3)can we drop point three lol? it hasn't been an issue since everyone found out about the dragonhead glitch 2 weeks after release XD.
    4)wotg benefits from fcr.. im to lazy to find my proof.. and yeah you're right, lightning spells are effected. so are the soulspears, arrows and mass. the difference is that these spells usually aren't cast within immediate roll stab distance or they're cast during an attack.. where gc and sometimes gcf are cast point blank or at a progressing enemy..

    those are my tactics tho, not fact. i'm sure there's some poor soul out there that spams lightning spear/css pointblank at invaders..
    Chaos tempest or whatever it is. Each pillar and its lava takes longer to spawn meaning it protects you longer as it lasts longer. You are slightly more vulnerable but it can lure people in to try and BS you thinking they are safe and got a suprise pillar.
    2) I think we've gotten lost around this point lol. Int anf fth have weapon buffs, Pyros have PW. Id call it even.
    3) No we cannot drop point 3 because it is a major p[oint against you. Now everyone just glitches the glove over and takes away the main soul cost of pyro. You cant just drop a point cause it doesnt support your cause lol.
    4) You have a point here, but you can overcome this by judging distances better. Start casting a bit earlier and stuff.

    Overall I think whether you go 45 dex or not dpeends on your spells. GC + GCF? 45 dex. PW and tempest? 9.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Rifter7 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:16 am

    1) tempest isn't going to lure people in.. they're just gonna back off and shoot you in the face with a bow... or css if they feel like ending the duel... no offense, but if someone goes sprinting into a tempest and they AREN'T standing right in front of you, they're probably a noob. trust me, i've intentionally cast tempest in the burg many a time to see who exactly would run in and try what you're saying, no one does..
    2) ew.. don't compare a suicidal spell to legitimate weapon buffs hahah.
    3) fine.. if you really want to keep argueing that point, i'm going to at least change it to the fact that everyone already has a max level flame. the other talismans and catalysts all offer their own perks, benefits and cons. the pyromancy flame is pretty one dimensional aside from using power within, with 230 adj according to mugen. logans cat at 44 gives 234, and the tin cryst cat gives 293 mag adj to a weapon buff.. that's a bit crazy. the darkmoon talisman only gives 226 at 50 faith(wtf right?)! BUT the dmb buff has a 2.1x mag adjust at rank 3 of the covenant. 2.1. not only that but theres an option to use either lightning (one of the toughest resists to defend against) or magic (which'll do godlike damage with your dmb covenant). yes, these all require investment into certain stats. yes... they're all awesome.. and you know what? they don't necessarily require a ton of dex to use either. the alternative? slowly kill yourself as your opponent rolls just out of distance with power within.. i mean.. really.. sure, pyro has some cool utility spells, but int and faith have some equally awesome ones which also don't take a lot of skill points, so i'd say that you're getting a lot of bang for your buck when you invest into these other trees. now if pyro had a weapon buff, don't worry- i'd be pissed off too... but in general you're getting a lot of bang for your buck when you invest into these other trees for their buffs.
    4) yeah.. like i said earlier nothing is necessary in this game.. the point of the builds, min-maxing and all this nonsense is, at least to me, to increase my chances of winning.. and to do that i need to do damage. reducing the required timing for input in an already laggy game with all sorts of fun variables jumping in isn't exactly what i want, even if i can handle it.. so i go for max fcr for the most reliability.


    i'm sorry, i'm getting really friggin confused with this point system and how we're responding.. am i even arguing about the same thing anymore ahah!?


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:39 am

    1) Im just going off other peoples (mainly Rynn's) experience here.
    2) lol PW is one of the best spells.
    30 You lost me
    4) yeah.

    I think we're done here lol.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Rifter7 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:11 am

    what where we talking about? where am i...

    NURSE!?


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Ghadis_God on Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:48 pm

    It's true that it's most effective with 45 dex and lots of attunement for chaos pyro and multiple castings, but none of that stops a vit gouged elemental tank from whipping out GC when you're low on health, and it certainly doesn't stop a griefer from killing you at SL20 with one pyro hit. That's why people have a problem with pyro not needing stats, because even though it costs souls, it doesn't cost levels unless you're trying to be incredibly specialized.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Knight Alundil on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:11 pm

    Pyromancys don't need stats. In exchange for this they have no buff.

    Faith has a badass buff, in exchange for faith weapon scaling being **** and lacking good offensive spells with the exception of WoG.

    Intelligence has the best spells and a good buff and uhm... I'm not sure of their drawback tbh.

    Ofc this is my opinion so don't stab me.

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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Rifter7 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:19 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:Pyromancys don't need stats. In exchange for this they have no buff.

    Faith has a badass buff, in exchange for faith weapon scaling being **** and lacking good offensive spells with the exception of WoG.

    Intelligence has the best spells and a good buff and uhm... I'm not sure of their drawback tbh.

    Ofc this is my opinion so don't stab me.

    int spells are really picky about the aim vs players. they work well if you can set the situation for them to work.

    on their own they're kind of garbage... where pyromancies work particularly well by themselves. the next runner up would be wotg. sorceries imo are the best for punishing players in different ways and work well with some kind of a plan or combo, where the other spells are pretty simple in application.

    basically, they're great for players that like combos and want a magical parry in a sense.

    and sadly.. today i found that soul who spammed css in roll distance..
    roll stabbed..


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Knight Alundil on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:21 pm

    You realise by saying pyromancies work well by themselves in response to my post you're kind of admitting your original point was inaccurate?

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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Ghadis_God on Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:38 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:Pyromancys don't need stats. In exchange for this they have no buff.

    Faith has a badass buff, in exchange for faith weapon scaling being **** and lacking good offensive spells with the exception of WoG.

    Intelligence has the best spells and a good buff and uhm... I'm not sure of their drawback tbh.

    Ofc this is my opinion so don't stab me.
    No buff? You really underestimate Power Within. It allows a massive damage bonus on weapons that can't be buffed, and also affects pyro, miracles, and sorc. It's a great buff.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Slarg232 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:07 pm

    Ghadis_God wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:Pyromancys don't need stats. In exchange for this they have no buff.

    Faith has a badass buff, in exchange for faith weapon scaling being **** and lacking good offensive spells with the exception of WoG.

    Intelligence has the best spells and a good buff and uhm... I'm not sure of their drawback tbh.

    Ofc this is my opinion so don't stab me.
    No buff? You really underestimate Power Within. It allows a massive damage bonus on weapons that can't be buffed, and also affects pyro, miracles, and sorc. It's a great buff.



    Wait, PW affects Spells?!?



    Also, does anyone know how much faster the Lightning Spears are with the 45 dex?
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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:10 pm

    It affects all damaging attacks.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:12 pm

    PW affects everything that does damage.


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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Slarg232 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:15 pm

    SWEEET!

    Now I know what to fill my last slot with. Just need an un-upgraded Glove for it.
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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Knight Alundil on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:35 pm

    Ghadis_God wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:Pyromancys don't need stats. In exchange for this they have no buff.

    Faith has a badass buff, in exchange for faith weapon scaling being **** and lacking good offensive spells with the exception of WoG.

    Intelligence has the best spells and a good buff and uhm... I'm not sure of their drawback tbh.

    Ofc this is my opinion so don't stab me.
    No buff? You really underestimate Power Within. It allows a massive damage bonus on weapons that can't be buffed, and also affects pyro, miracles, and sorc. It's a great buff.

    That's true. Very valid point.

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    Re: "pyromancies don't need any stats"

    Post by Rifter7 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:06 am

    Knight Alundil wrote:You realise by saying pyromancies work well by themselves in response to my post you're kind of admitting your original point was inaccurate?

    when i say pyromancies work well by themselves i mean that i can spam the bejesus out of most pyromancies aside from tempest and not worry to much about it.


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