Fast Rolling in Havel's

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    DarkW17
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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by DarkW17 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:46 am

    omega Elf wrote:http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=3140071322635705

    Fast-rolling giant-moms - Ridiculous. Havel's Ring is very clearly
    OP. It's the "easy mode" ring. Without Havel's Ring, you could
    not get this set-up (and fast-roll), not even with 99 in endurance,
    though, with it, you require, very little, stat investment.

    If you want to fast-roll, with all the benefits, which that provides -
    then you should NOT, also, be able, to get maximum defense &
    massive poise.

    When I go fast-roll, i wear only robes, with very little (if any) poise.
    This is the way, I believe, the game, was designed to be played.
    If you want to be a tank build, then, really, you should use mid-roll
    or fat-roll.




    Though, if you want to fight, using this "crutch", then by all means
    do. Does, it make you, a better, more skilled, player than me?,
    that's for you to decide. I just feel, it takes out, all of the challenge
    from the game.

    Dude do you have to Troll every thread with your DWGR comments???????

    Just leave it alone stack your poise and flip away right out of this thread...it has nothing to do with DWGR its about fast rolling in havels!!!

    I am so fackn sick of you trying to flame every thread with your DWGR disputes take it elsewere!!


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by Federally on Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:54 am

    DarkW I blame Doughy for feeding the troll.


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by ICEFANG on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:00 pm

    I think the build looks cool. No way it would be considered OP, the elemental weapons have lost a lot of their zing at this level, and you 'only' have 30vit, and your rings are stuck in that way too. Definitely has disadvantages, vs this build which, hilariously, says ERROR when I tried to minify it, but it 'only' requires 65 END, a decrease of 34 SLs to use DWGR. Havel's Ring is so much more fair, because it does have an effect, it helps fat and medium roll be easy to achieve, as I agree with ReaperFan on.


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by omega Elf on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:08 pm

    DarkW17 wrote:do you have to Troll every thread with your DWGR comments???????
    Just leave it alone stack your poise and flip away right out of this thread...it has nothing to do with DWGR its about fast rolling in havels!!!

    I'm discussing Havels, so quit flaming!, and I don't use dwgr,
    or havels ring, I can fast roll without them.
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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by VeranoChico on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:14 pm

    omega Elf wrote:
    VeranoChico wrote:The general idea was that I was to drop my vitality for defense. That way I don't have it too easy. Since my first couple of characters rolled with 30 vitality before, I have no problems with having 1325 HP.

    I appreciate, you've disadvantaged yourself, through low vitality,
    to compensate. What would be, the honorable, vitality cut-off
    point, for using dwgr?

    There is no set rule for me on when to stop putting in vitality while using DWGR.
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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by DarkW17 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:15 pm

    omega Elf wrote:
    DarkW17 wrote:do you have to Troll every thread with your DWGR comments???????
    Just leave it alone stack your poise and flip away right out of this thread...it has nothing to do with DWGR its about fast rolling in havels!!!

    I'm discussing Havels, so quit flaming!, and I don't use dwgr,
    or havels ring, I can fast roll without them.

    Awesome did you want a cookie???????? Oh I forgot Trolls don't eat cookies my bad lol


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by omega Elf on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:34 pm

    DarkW17 wrote:
    omega Elf wrote:
    DarkW17 wrote:do you have to Troll every thread with your DWGR comments???????
    Just leave it alone stack your poise and flip away right out of this thread...it has nothing to do with DWGR its about fast rolling in havels!!!

    I'm discussing Havels, so quit flaming!, and I don't use dwgr,
    or havels ring, I can fast roll without them.

    Awesome did you want a cookie???????? Oh I forgot Trolls don't eat cookies my bad lol

    With all the discussion, of the dwgr, some miss the fact, how Havel's Ring,
    is also, very much, overpowered. For the most part, this goes unnoticed,
    or, perhaps, simply ignored; Because, to address the problem, many
    players, would lose their beloved fast-roll - did they wish, to continue,
    using, their preferred armor sets, and weapons.
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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:41 pm

    omega Elf wrote:With all the discussion, of the dwgr, some miss the fact, how Havel's Ring,
    is also, very much, overpowered. For the most part, this goes unnoticed,
    or, perhaps, simply ignored; Because, to address the problem, many
    players, would lose their beloved fast-roll - did they wish, to continue,
    using, their preferred armor sets, and weapons.

    The only ground I see to openly call Havel's Ring broken is when it's used in conjunction with the DWGR. As the metagame stands right now, Havel's is merely a catalyst to improve the effectiveness of the DWGR. Without the DWGR, Havel's would see more use as a fat-rolling build enhancer (as per my earlier point), and probably some use for medium builds. Fast-rolling builds, if they chose to use any equipment boosters at all, would likely stick to the RoFaP instead of Havels, since they use mostly light armor and wouldn't need so much boost to achieve their roll speed of choice (except in extremly niche cases like the original point of this thread).


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by omega Elf on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:07 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:The only ground I see to openly call Havel's Ring broken is when it's used in conjunction with the DWGR.

    It's when Havels Ring, is used, in conjunction, with RoFaP, that it's
    power is truly evident. Using, the Giants-mom build, as an example,
    RoFaP + Havels (rather than - dwgr + Havels), gives you far greater
    HP & stamina; And a roll, which is faster, and tighter, and with
    practice, many would concider, will actually make you a better player.
    The only advantage, to going, dwgr + Havels, is, the increased equip
    load. Which, on that build, is essentially wasted.
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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by ICEFANG on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:13 pm

    Yes RoFaP is better than Havel's ring if you only need 20% more EL than 50%, whats your point? You gave a narrow and pointless comparison. Its like you argue yourself, saying Havel's ring is too good, but then you said RoFaP is better? It all depends on the build doesn't it? But when it comes to EL increase, nothing is better for fast rolling/flipping than DWGR.


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by omega Elf on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:20 pm

    ICEFANG wrote:Yes RoFaP is better than Havel's ring if you only need 20% more EL than 50%, whats your point? You gave a narrow and pointless comparison. Its like you argue yourself, saying Havel's ring is too good, but then you said RoFaP is better? It all depends on the build doesn't it? But when it comes to EL increase, nothing is better for fast rolling/flipping than DWGR.

    The point, though perhaps not clear, was, that Havel's Ring, could
    be considered, equally broken, when used, in conjunction, with the
    RoFaP. Saying, that Havel's Ring, could only, be considered broken,
    when used, in conjunction with the DWGR, is just, a way, to shift
    blame, back, onto the dwgr.
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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by DarkW17 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:28 pm

    Hey OP can you can you change the thread title to 'the 100th discussion about how broken the DWGR is and Omega Elf's need to discuss it in every thread remotely related to that'????? That would be great!!

    Btw I have a cookie for you for attempting to make a cool unquie build...in 1000's of hours of game play I have never witnessed anyone fast roll in havels!!


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:28 pm

    omega Elf wrote:The point, though perhaps not clear, was, that Havel's Ring, could
    be considered, equally broken, when used, in conjunction, with the
    RoFaP. Saying, that Havel's Ring, could only, be considered broken,
    when used, in conjunction with the DWGR, is just, a way, to shift
    blame, back, onto the dwgr.

    You say that like the DWGR isn't at fault. Even with Havel's+RoFaP, it is impossible to fast roll in a full heavy build. Swap out the RoFaP for DWGR, and you don't even have to reach 99 Endurance to ninja flip. One option is statistically better than the other, it's not even possible to argue.

    You say Havel's Ring is just as broken as DWGR because they work so well together. I ask you this then; Is Havel's Ring without the DWGR a broken item?


    Last edited by Reaperfan on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by ICEFANG on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:32 pm

    Your example is still flawed. You're comparing RoFaP and Havel's vs Havel's and DWGR. So that means you must be comparing RoFaP and the DWGR. At 40 END, you get 80EL, and 20 to fast roll. With RoFaP and Havel's you get 36 fast roll EL, with just the DWGR, you get 40 for the flip, which is considered to be better. You can't say that RoFaP and Havel's is better than DWGR, even if it does add HP and Stamina, it adds less EL, and that uses 2 rings. DWGR with Havel's has much more EL and DWGR with RoFaP has more EL than RoFaP and Havel's combined, and gives the HP and Stamina anyway. There is no way to argue that, for fast rolling, that even the RoFaP and Havel's is better than the DWGR. I'm sorry I'm gonna say troll too.


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by VeranoChico on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:34 pm

    DarkW17 wrote:Hey OP can you can you change the thread title to 'the 100th discussion about how broken the DWGR is and Omega Elf's need to discuss it in every thread remotely related to that'????? That would be great!!

    Btw I have a cookie for you for attempting to make a cool unquie build...in 1000's of hours of game play I have never witnessed anyone fast roll in havels!!

    Haha thank you man, like I said I just wanted to do something different from the low or zero poise builds I tend to make. I also will have to say no to your request. I came here for some opinions on the build, not to hurt another person.
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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by Federally on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:37 pm

    VeranoChico a +1 to you for trying to make a thread about something I've never seen anyone do. Sorry your thread was high jacked by a troll and those who fall for it.


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by VeranoChico on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:42 pm

    Federally wrote:VeranoChico a +1 to you for trying to make a thread about something I've never seen anyone do. Sorry your thread was high jacked by a troll and those who fall for it.

    I appreciate it man. I should have known this would happen considering the DWGR thread is still going strong.


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by Federally on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:45 pm

    Well when you make it i'd love to fight you with my mid roll build!


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by omega Elf on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:48 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:You say Havel's Ring is just as broken as DWGR because they work so well together. I ask you this then; Is Havel's Ring without the DWGR a broken item?

    Which ring will offer the most benefits - dwgr or Havels, is very much,
    build specific, and based, on which roll, you happen to prefer. To say
    one is broken, while the other is not, I believe, is false. Either, their
    BOTH broken, OR, neither one is broken.
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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:49 pm

    So back to your build VeranoChico. That is pretty cool. My dueling toon is set up to fast roll in Black Iron but you got me beat. Fast roll Havel is pretty slick. You had to sacrifice over 20 more points than I did which definitely leaves you out in the cold on a few things but you've balanced it pretty well.

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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by DarkW17 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:55 pm

    @ OP it was obviously a joke but ya sucks you got trolled!!

    I think I will make a fat rolling havel build and well have a duel lol!!


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by Federally on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:55 pm

    Verano I still suggest you dump the helm to save on some weight and have more points to play with. I think it saves you like 15, or lets you use heavier weapons and save like 10. The added poise from the helm really isn't necessary as you're still over 100 and can tank repeat hits from anything.


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by omega Elf on Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:12 pm

    A leopard can change their spots!

    These 2 builds, are so close in stats, and in performance ability; That, no
    matter which one, is MORE overpowered, how can you claim, that one
    IS, whilst the other, is perfectly acceptable.

    dwgr + rofap
    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=4683077426208718
    havels + rofap
    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=3140071322635705
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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by Federally on Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:17 pm

    Yeah cus saving 18 points in endurance is nothing.

    **** I fed the troll!


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    Re: Fast Rolling in Havel's

    Post by VeranoChico on Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:19 pm

    Federally wrote:Verano I still suggest you dump the helm to save on some weight and have more points to play with. I think it saves you like 15, or lets you use heavier weapons and save like 10. The added poise from the helm really isn't necessary as you're still over 100 and can tank repeat hits from anything.

    Yeah I reviewed it, the helm doesn't give much in defense and regardless I can only tank one hit from an ultra weapon. The only problem I have is aesthetics.
    I'm quite OCD with matching themes or sets.


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