fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:29 pm

    Stunlocking isn't unfair. . .


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by RandelOolacile on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:05 pm

    PhantomEWGF (I wonder if that stands for electric wind god fist) has some epic tutorials that I've been getting into to try and understand pvp better and its helped me tons! The most beneficial, and probably more pertinent in this discussion, is the toggle escape. I used to read about it and couldn't get a consistent application of it, after the video I have a 80% success rate. Its great! Another really interesting thing I learned was using iShield. That just frame application of blocking is integral for punishing safely!

    big grin


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:09 pm

    RandelOolacile wrote:PhantomEWGF (I wonder if that stands for electric wind god fist) has some epic tutorials that I've been getting into to try and understand pvp better and its helped me tons! The most beneficial, and probably more pertinent in this discussion, is the toggle escape. I used to read about it and couldn't get a consistent application of it, after the video I have a 80% success rate. Its great! Another really interesting thing I learned was using iShield. That just frame application of blocking is integral for punishing safely!

    big grin

    the what? XD send a link?


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by RandelOolacile on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:27 pm

    KillerMisery wrote:
    RandelOolacile wrote:PhantomEWGF (I wonder if that stands for electric wind god fist) has some epic tutorials that I've been getting into to try and understand pvp better and its helped me tons! The most beneficial, and probably more pertinent in this discussion, is the toggle escape. I used to read about it and couldn't get a consistent application of it, after the video I have a 80% success rate. Its great! Another really interesting thing I learned was using iShield. That just frame application of blocking is integral for punishing safely!

    big grin

    the what? XD send a link?

    The iShield? Not sure if that's what it's called, but since it seems like a just frame input tactic from fighting games like Tekken and street fighter, i.e. Karas and the like, i figured I would call it iShield. Let me see if I can locate the video. big grin


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by RandelOolacile on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:36 pm

    Here's his channel! big grin Its a few videos detailing some expert level tech on PvPing.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/phantomewgf


    The video that speaks of the instant shield and stun-lock toggle escape is the oddities video, I believe. big grin

    Edit: It's this video more specifically, sorry didn't realize there were two oddities videos.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EVdvduhI6E

    Right at 6:00 minute mark if you don't want to watch the whole thing. big grin


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:45 pm

    lol thanks XD


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by vageta31 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:04 pm

    The problem is that not one of us here has the same idea of what honorable is. TC wants to believe he's taking the high road of morality by following some sort of code, but that's an incredibly elitist way of thinking and an even poorer way of playing. People want to take this game which is all about invasions and death, slap an arbitrary honor code on it, pretend it's some sort of pseudo fighting game and then come to the boards to complain when others don't follow their rules(which they will claim is something the community agrees on which we clearly don't).


    Others want to enjoy this game the way the developers intended, and that is with the gloves off. They don't want to follow someone else's set of rules, they want to enjoy the game in their own way. Some people take this to the extreme by trolling, others just want to play how they want and skip the red tape. I fall into the 2nd group. I absolutely despise duels so I completely disagree with what Dough said earlier. Duels bore me to tears and if I wanted to fight in this manner I'd fire up Street Fighter or something. I have my own code. It generally revolves around myself not using certain tactics unless I'm either outnumbered, or it's used on me first, but I don't expect others to follow this. Personally I find it dis-honorable to play with a strict code then come to the boards to complain about others not using it. Sorry but if you were truly honorable then you would lose with grace and not make excuses, isn't that sort of what the idea of honor is about?


    From gave us this huge world to play in and a ton of freedom in the combat system, yet the honor crowd wants to throw half of it away and fight others in a very small confined area with a strict set of rules and when others don't comply they cry about lacking honor. This whole argument reminds me of the fight scene between Bronn and Sir Vargas in Game of Thrones. If you know it you'll understand, if not then watch and tell me this isn't exactly what dark souls PvP is all about.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN30YMzja6Y


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by RandelOolacile on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:31 pm

    Vegeta has a valid point, but I also feel both contentions can be respected.

    If you're looking for a fight with parameters that will be adhered to, then going the route of a fight club would be your best bet, otherwise its to be expected that we'll face gankers and griefers alike. This is the way of things. Boxers don't step out into a bar fight and expect to go 10+ 2:00 minute rounds, there's no rules, its the nature of the beast.

    The game has a place for both honor and free for all. You want honor, join the fight clubs that ban BS, WotG spam, etc. Otherwise prep for all the ganking and griefing you can handle! big grin

    One last thing, ganking can be an effective way to hone your skills! It'll teach you tactics to better avoid chain BS, roll timing for WotG spam AND toggle escaping! Its tried and true, my friends! big grin


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:20 pm

    Id have to agree that following a set rules can take away from the fun aspect of the game as well as tactics but at the same time its good to have a little down time and just do a normal nothing special duel/fight and think what to do.
    My thing about fighting honorably is fighting me man to man, face to face and taking defeat like a man instead of getting behind me, *** me over then boasting thinking your win was something special. yall understand what I'm trying to say? i just don't understand why its so hard for players to face my front and not my back.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by FinPeku on Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:41 pm

    Vageta31 wrote: This whole argument reminds me of the fight scene between Bronn and Sir Vargas in Game of Thrones. If you know it you'll understand, if not then watch and tell me this isn't exactly what dark souls PvP is all about.
    That was a PvP veteran fighting a newbie, and it had nothing to do with honor. Just look at the way he punished that r1 spamming at 1:40 with a nice parry.

    But seriously, i hope you realize that not all in the "honor crowd" complain about players doing stuff differently. I like duels but i like regular invasions too. I have builds for both purposes. As you said, from gave us a ton of freedom in the combat system and that's why i want to use it in a lot of different ways.

    KillerMisery wrote:i just don't understand why its so hard for players to face my front and not my back.
    How could the players know that you would like to fight them without backstabbing?

    Think it like this. I died against Taurus Demon the first time i fought him. Then, i realized that i can do a plunging attack on him and i learned to beat him. I died numerous times against Smough and Ornstein until i learned how to keep them separated. Gwyn killed me countless times before i learned how to parry him.

    I have no idea how many times i died because invaders backstabbed, stunlocked, wog spammed, or did anything else which killed me easily. Of course it was annoying. But I practiced different things, tried different weapons and builds, watched a lot of pvp videos, read different threads in here, and did all kinds of research and practice. I'm still not a pvp master, but i have learned to counter all of those things i mentioned and many many new players often complain about.

    Dark souls is about learning. Keep on trying, and the game will reward you with the mastery of it's mechanics.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by vageta31 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:44 pm

    FinPeku wrote:

    But seriously, i hope you realize that not all in the "honor crowd" complain about players doing stuff differently. I like duels but i like regular invasions too. I have builds for both purposes. As you said, from gave us a ton of freedom in the combat system and that's why i want to use it in a lot of different ways.
    I have no issue with any players in general, only the ones that openly complain. It's great that people want to fight in an honorable way, it just irks me when they expect others to do the same and then act as if they're doing something wrong if they don't. Honestly with all I've said and defended you'd think me a ganker, though I do fight quite honorably in a one on one battle. I will often bow and purposely go out of my way to fight in certain ways, even if they leave themselves open for it. On the other hand when I fight someone and they want a brawl I simply smile and give it to them in return. I just personally have far more fun in this game when fights are brutal and honest than I do in any sort of honor duel. Instead of holding back trying to fight under what the other guy thinks is "fair", it's just nice to let loose and play with no holds barred.
    TC simply has to learn to either accept the fact that not everyone will follow his code and deal with it, or be resigned to constant frustration. I used to get backstabbed all the time but it didn't take long to figure out the issue and overcome it. Now when someone is actively trying to fish for backstabs it just means free ones for me. Backstab fishers are the easiest to backstab themselves as the defender has the upperhand, but that's a topic for another thread.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:56 pm

    vageta31 wrote:
    FinPeku wrote:

    But seriously, i hope you realize that not all in the "honor crowd" complain about players doing stuff differently. I like duels but i like regular invasions too. I have builds for both purposes. As you said, from gave us a ton of freedom in the combat system and that's why i want to use it in a lot of different ways.
    I have no issue with any players in general, only the ones that openly complain. It's great that people want to fight in an honorable way, it just irks me when they expect others to do the same and then act as if they're doing something wrong if they don't. Honestly with all I've said and defended you'd think me a ganker, though I do fight quite honorably in a one on one battle. I will often bow and purposely go out of my way to fight in certain ways, even if they leave themselves open for it. On the other hand when I fight someone and they want a brawl I simply smile and give it to them in return. I just personally have far more fun in this game when fights are brutal and honest than I do in any sort of honor duel. Instead of holding back trying to fight under what the other guy thinks is "fair", it's just nice to let loose and play with no holds barred.
    TC simply has to learn to either accept the fact that not everyone will follow his code and deal with it, or be resigned to constant frustration. I used to get backstabbed all the time but it didn't take long to figure out the issue and overcome it. Now when someone is actively trying to fish for backstabs it just means free ones for me. Backstab fishers are the easiest to backstab themselves as the defender has the upperhand, but that's a topic for another thread.


    ^as far as fighting "Honorably and or Fair" more or less that's what I'm trying to say here but ill never change my position on back stabbing as far as i'm concerned its a cowardly act and i also wanna say that I'm not complaining about this I'm just voicing my opinion on this matter, there is a difference.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by FinPeku on Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:25 pm

    @Vageta31

    Dude, i'd never think you as a ganker big grin I've seen you doing some forest hunting yourself. And yes, it is wrong to expect people playing with your rules. That's why i like going to fc sometimes, or burg or any common dueling areas. There you can at least usually assume people won't be healing in the middle of duels or use glitches etc.

    @KillerMisery

    You have now said that backstabbing and stunlocking are both cowardly. I mean... They are both one of the basic combat elements. But i see no point arguing about this with you. It is your opinion.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by vageta31 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:06 pm

    I didn't mean that YOU personally assumed I was a ganker happy, just that people reading this in general who see me defending other playstyles might assume so. I'm all about freedom, especially in a game that gives you so much of it. Play how you like, if others don't like it then it's not your problem. Personally I think ganking is the most boring and shameless way of fighting, but if people didn't do it then my fun factor would be far less than it is so I'm glad gankers exist.


    TC I'm not going to attempt to change your mind, you're entitled to your opinion. Think about this though, there is this classed called a Thief. They are given a dagger as their weapon and a small shield, would you have them stand toe to toe with someone wielding a greatsword and heavy shield? Some players enjoy lightly armored characters with fast weapons and like the idea of roleplaying their class, for them fighting someone face to face is suicide. They're supposed to try and backstab you, to bait you into swinging your big sword so they can dodge it and try to counter you. The playstyle you apparently want is for 2 players to trade blows, but that only works if you're willing to load up on heavy armor to avoid the "cowardly" stunlock and use big enough weapons to keep up with an opponents damage. That absolutely homogenizes the gameplay and reduces the complexity of the combat system into button mashing.


    Comparing video games to real life is a horrible analogy, but the fighting you want only happens in real life during some sort of formalized competition. Dark Souls is more like a street fight where your life is on the line. You take whatever advantages you can get because you won't have a 2nd chance. Eye gouging, groin kicking, ear biting, sand in the eyes, bottles over the head, etc.. is all seen as cowardly. What matters though is who is standing/living at the end of the fight. I can tell you that if someone were to attack me on the street the last thing on my mind is honor. Most people that play this game have this mindset. You invade my world I will do whatever it takes to kill you. I invade your world I'm not going to pretend I'm there for a cup of tea, I'm there to murder you. Leave the honorable duels to RSS with people you know. Everything else is a free for all.


    Again refer to the video clip. A heavy armored knight with a shield against a lightly armored opponent without a shield. Had the light armored guy just went head to head he would have lost, but instead he used his mobility as an advantage. The knight fought honorably.. and died. His opponent fought smartly and survived. This is Dark Souls pvp in a nutshell.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Onion Knight on Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:24 pm

    When will these threads die out? ... can't people just play the way they want and relax a little? Maybe? ...


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:30 pm

    well I.m not gonna bother with this further cause its a lost subject and i don't know what "TC" stands for but I'm not comparing this game to real life what so ever nor do i expect anyone to follow some "code"...I do get what your saying though and I understand that it is an aspect of the game as well makes it a tactic for lightly armored toons so with that ill leave this subject as is sense i'm not exactly get my point across to anyone here. :|


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Lancelot on Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:40 pm

    I put my Red Sign Soapstone down at the Kiln and all I got was: people standing behind me trying to get a backstab in; gankers; and WotG spammers. I killed most of them through my BKGA and Hornet's Ring.

    Most people think I'm a backstabber because of my bk greataxe, but, really, I like the moveset and power.


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