fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

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    fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:50 pm

    I don't know how many backstabbing ***** and stun lockers I've come across but it's unbelievable that everyone has to back stab to win. I got dark souls the day it came out in the US and for the first month or so i had plenty of fair fights and I enjoyed every fight then all of a sudden people became unable to fight me face to face and instead they face my back, has anyone else ran into as many of these dogs as i have? (I imagine yes probably :| )


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by ARSP on Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:02 pm

    Welcome to modern darksouls PVP everyone deals with these people you are not the first or the last but here we have strategies to counter I'll look and see if there are any threads where these strategies are list but here is a few to start.

    Stunlockers- using the guantlets or legs of Havel tend to help stop them

    Back stabbers flip around a lot so try fight them in enclosed spaces where there is no room to flip

    Gankers- run and kill one at a time

    Since you just joined today welcome to the forum


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:05 pm

    If you aren't a fan of backstabbing, we do have a fight club that sets up battles, without backstabs.
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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by ARSP on Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:11 pm

    Rule #1 about fight club

    Always talk about fight club


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:16 pm

    I appreciate the advice, sadly even havels with its high poise i seem to get stun locked but that hardly angers me really because its the back stabbing dogs that is the issue. To be honest i really wish they would take it out of the game cause it ruins the fun of a good fight :|

    I'll take a look at the fight club thanks.


    Last edited by KillerMisery on Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by ROOSTER330 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 pm

    Join the Samurai/Ninja Tournament next weekend!!! (gotta advertise where I can happy )


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:20 pm

    well i got a new samurai mage build if that counts


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by ROOSTER330 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:01 pm

    KillerMisery wrote:well i got a new samurai mage build if that counts

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t8442-revised-samurai-ninja-pvp-tournament-ps3

    Check out the thread, its a ........ very irregular ..... kind of pvp tournament. Just something fun and out of the ordinary. Dont want to Totally bomb on this thread so I will add some input to the original topic happy

    Honour is not completely non existent in pvp, it is real hard to find though. The fight clubs and various tournaments are good for it. Also joining a user covenant can help, at least put you in contact with various events and other like minded people.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by RandelOolacile on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:16 pm

    ROOSTER330 wrote:Join the Samurai/Ninja Tournament next weekend!!! (gotta advertise where I can happy )

    What is this? Hmm... big grin


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:28 pm

    "Fair" and "Honor" are concepts based on an agreement between two people. There's nothing that's objectively honorable, though it's possible to fight with unspoken rules against random people. Mostly everyone who's good at PvP on this forum has the capacity to fight really cheaply to counter cheap fighters, and do so when they come across them. I have had fair fights with random people, but there's always a point where your concept of honor and theirs will overlap, and that's where there are problems. You, for example, seem to have a problem with stunlocking, so if I killed you with my Mura stunlock you would probably say I'm not fighting fairly, though in my eyes I used a tactic that is completely in line with the balance of my weapon and your armor. We're both fighting fair and yet neither of us are unless we agree on rules beforehand.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:55 pm

    I understand your point but i don't have a major problem with stun locking (even tho its a cowardly way to fight) and i see if that situation arises i wouldn't rage cause id see you using a fighting style that would a counter against me, i'm talking about those players that rush you, purposely stun locking you then boasting like they own the world, you see my point? and my thing on back stabbing well...its the most cowardly act possible and shows nothing but weakness proving that even if you win against a stronger player or a beginner you will always be the weaker fighter even though i know its also a tactic but i don't find it to be one at all. I'm sorry but i have to disagree on your logic that "honor and fair" is an agreement between two parties for everyone knows whats honorable and fair but most people refuse to ad-hear to those and instead take the path of the Dog to show they are the lesser man in the equation but sense i don't want any ragers emerge from this ill end my statement here.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by HomicidalCanine on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:06 pm

    I must agree on backstabbers, though I think stunlocking is perfectly fine (what else has the GLGS got going for it?). I mostly take part in jolly cooperation instead of PvP though, so I can see how it could get annoying.
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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:09 pm

    Honour exists and it can be found in plentiful supply on our forum. We value others' enjoyment you see happy


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:19 pm

    Both are fine in my view. I hate the people that just circle trying for a backstab, but I can deal with those too normally unless there's lag.

    If some mage is keeping distance throwing spells, I have no issue diving behind and stabbing him in the back if he makes a mistake. I use a rapier + hornets ring, so criticals is my game (parry/riposte if possible). I normally try to tag them a bunch of times to get them to rush me, then dodge and backstab, or parry / backstab depending.

    Anyways. Just fishing for a backstab is lame, but if you make a mistake with a big move and they punish you for it, totally honorable in my view.

    What weapon/armour do you use by the way, if you don't like being stunlocked and you don't like backstabbing/being backstabbed?


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:40 pm

    I use what ever works for the builds i create and usually fight a friend to figure out the bugs of the setup that i fail to not see


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:43 pm

    Are you kidding? Why would the other person care about if you have fun? (/sarcasm)
    Its the sad state of affairs in the DkS community that people only care about their enjoyment (i.e. winning) when duelling is almost always a more enjoyable alternative for both parties.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:36 pm

    You're making some pretty big assumptions there Dough.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by vageta31 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:47 pm

    Stunlocking is considered cheap now? The problem with "cheap" is that the term is used to describe anything somebody doesn't like about the game, it doesn't actually mean what they're complaining about is truly cheap. Everything, and I mean everything that isn't an actual glitch has a counter.


    Without backstabs, everyone would load up on poise gear and just stand still and heal while you hopelessly attacked them. They are an integral part of the game for punishing mistakes and people that try to heal.


    Without stun-locking weapons there is no need for heavy armor/poise, and small weapons reign supreme. Why use a slow weapon that does only marginally more damage when you can use light weapons with far more DPS. People complain about poise BS, which is the absolute antithesis of this complaint. You don't want to be stunlocked, yet you are ok with someone calmly walking through your attack to backstab you while you haven't finished the animation of your swing? The entire game is balanced around this mechanic.


    Sometimes I feel like if every complainer got their wish we'd all be standing naked in a 5x5 room swinging clubs at one another to make it "fair". From gave us a very complex combat system and as with all systems, it can never be balanced. Some tactics will be superior to others, it does not make them cheap, only effective. At some point people have to decide if it's better to spend more time learning how to overcome these tactics, or waste time complaining about how crappy the system is. I've spent countless paragraphs across multiple message boards and even have videos showing exactly how to overcome cheapness, yet it seems to fall on deaf ears. I explain in detail how to evade backstabs and the only response in the thread is to others that happen to agree with the TC's complaints. It's to the point I don't actually think they want to learn how to play the game, it's just easier to find others to comfort them and justify their complaints.


    Honor has no place in Dark Souls, the game has been created from the ground up to be "unfair". Some people like to fight with whatever their idea of honor is, but you can't expect everyone to play exactly like this nor complain when they don't. Ganking exists because it was designed to exist. Low level invasions exists because that's how From wanted it. People will find the most effective way to kill others, but like any other competitive game there are ways to overcome these tactics. Many people are already at that level, others will never reach it because they give up and cry unfair. That isn't the game's fault, or "cheap" players fault. That lies solely on the individual who has already given up and assumed they can't win and cry foul.


    Also remember this. A lot of RPG lovers don't have the skillset to compete in a game like this where the combat system is much closer to a fighting game. I grew up playing games like SF, Tekken, VF and played at tournament level. There are a ton of people out there like this and someone who lacks that sort of hand eye coordination, timing and experience in general will always be at a disadvantage. To these people everything seems cheap, to highly skilled players it's just another challenge to overcome. Dark Souls is a game where the possibilities are only limited by a person's skill level. The translates directly into the pvp environment and some people are just damn good at it. Even if you were to take out everything in the game considered "cheap", the better players will always have the upper hand. This isn't an ego thing or about bragging, it's about the simple fact that some people will be better than you no matter what you do. It's just a fact.


    This isn't meant to mock anyone, it's just a tough love kind of thing. Think of it this way, which is more productive to someone that is having trouble in pvp...


    "Stunlocking is so cheap! It's overpowered and unfair, only scrubs rely on it!"



    A. "You're right man, I hate it too. If it weren't for stunlocking weapons I'd totally win most of the matches. I only lose because these people are cheap and don't fight fair. Hopefully they'll take it out of the next game, or maybe we can start a petition!"


    B. "If you're getting stunlocked then you should wear enough poise so that the first hit won't stun you, there are countless threads about how much poise you need for each weapon type. If you get hit by the 2nd then it's your fault for not dodging or blocking at that point. When you first see your opponent you should take note of his weapon and armor and have a good idea how easily he can stunlock you, and also if your weapon can do the same to him. Adjust your tactics accordingly. "


    Sadly 9 out of 10 times I see no response to B, and a ton of back and forth complaining with A.




    TL;DR


    Get better.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by RandelOolacile on Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:54 pm

    Amen, Vageta31!

    +1

    Now can we get rid of those cheap broken sword hilts!? Cheapass weapons!


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Specter737 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:12 am

    Really? Everyone's STILL getting butthurt over stuff like this?
    Guys. Guys. Guys...

    C'mon now. This is not new. This is not some new development in the MP that's sprung up from the bowels of hell to lagstab you. This has been the case since before Dark souls was made, heck, since before demon souls was made. Everyone should expect... now let me say again... Everyone should EXPECT foul play.
    I would think, and hope, that everyone here would be alert enough to realize that that is just the state that online gaming is in. You're ALWAYS going to have those people who's only idea of fun is winning, and they will do anything to achieve that.

    Dough's got it right, as far as my experiences have led. Vageta's also right. If it pisses you off, get better. Learn to counter the cheapa** tactics that you already know people are going to use.
    Does it suck that things are this way? Yeah, it's really unfortunate that people can't just understand that the game would be so much more fun if everybody "played nice" but the reality of it is it's not that way, so MY best advice is get used to it.


    At least until we get our Pvp arena in the dlc.


    But, as cynical as it sounds, I really don't expect that to be all sunshine and daisies either.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Specter737 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:28 am

    My bad if that came off a little aggressive too, not trying to attack anyone. But do you guys so where I'm coming from?


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Noob-of-Artorias on Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:46 am

    I don't see stunlocking or backstabing as cheep, I see them as two useful tools in my arsenal, nothing more nothing less.

    Not much in Dark Souls can really be considered cheap, except maybe ganking. Everything has a purpose, everything has a counter, there is balance in chaos.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by KillerMisery on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:29 am

    hmmm i get what yall are saying i really do but like i said before i can deal with stun locking accordingly once i see from a distance the weapon they are using (unless its the GLGS then im screwed most of the time, even if i wore havels) and i am quite use to it thanks and im fairly good at the game i have no need to get better. There is a easy way to counter stun lock but sadly karmic justice is a broken spell(i found out the hard way) and ive also found that if your stun locked and spam wrath of gods while stun locked it will get you out of it, its a possible glitch i ran into the other night.

    After a while tho the constant back stabbing phantoms get to the point where its just annoys the living hell out of yah.you get what im saying? and in my opinion backstabbing doesn't prove your good either just shows your weaker then foe you face.

    where did them being cheap get into the thread? i never said they were cheap haha overpowered maybe but not cheap. there is gonna be an arena in the dlc? i didn't hear anything of the sort and of been up to date and constantly watching the rumors and news on it hmm interesting. Wow i don't know whether to be impressed by the entire speech vegeta wrote or the patience and time taken to write that colossal thing lol but i digress. I do under stand where vegeta is coming from and I know exactly what is being said but i gotta disagree with some things.

    dark souls does have a place for honor in it but most people don't acknowledge that fact but i truly cant say anything my self because my advice/rant would most likely be disregarded by those kind of people anyway.

    Most of the time when I fight its the game they screws me over which directly allows the enemy to pull a fast one on me.

    I will agree with you on the facts about stun locking though, it is overpowered and its also one of the two ways I die 50% of the time in pvp and if they fixed karmic justice there would be no problem with it what so ever but sadly FROM SOFTWARE wont get their finger out of their *** and fix the countless programming errors, glitches or close the command console which players are abusing (not hard to see who abuses and who doesn't in game)



    Last edited by KillerMisery on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by Juutas on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:45 am

    I was going to write a long text, but then I stopped and realised that nothing I say changes anything.
    Every single person has their own views on which is cheap and which is not and no matter how much we argue who is right and what is "honourable" we never reach agreement, so I just decided not to throw my spoon in this soup...and this comment is totally pointless so...yeah.


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    Re: fighting fair and honorably?... does that exist anymore?

    Post by FinPeku on Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:16 pm

    KillerMisery wrote:After a while tho the constant back stabbing phantoms get to the point where its just annoys the living hell out of yah.you get what im saying? and in my opinion backstabbing doesn't prove your good either just shows your weaker then foe you face.
    Yes backstabbing is annoying. But they are not unavoidable. If you are getting backstabbed, you have done a mistake. Unfortunately, it is that simple most of the time.

    How to avoid backstabs? Here are some basic tips which might work:

    1. Expect them. As you said, they are very common. Don't do anything crazy, like spam attack with a slow weapon, or try to cast a spell next to your opponent. As a matter of fact, don't spam anything at all. Good players will punish you.

    2. Learn to use locking off/locking on while fighting. This is most of the time an easy way to avoid a backstab. Attack, lock off, turn around in the middle of the attack animation. Works surprisingly often, and destroys bad backstabbers.

    3. Use thorn armor set. Any piece of the set lets you cancel a backstab if you roll towards your opponent at the same time he tries to backstab.

    4. Learn how to do a counter backstab. When you see your opponent turning sideways, just take a few steps sideways and you will most likely end up behind their back.


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