Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

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    Tolvo
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:45 am

    It's always great to get repped down for no reason at all.
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:50 am

    I dont even understand why you were repped down..... Nothing you said was unduely offensive to anyone nor was it unreasonable


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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Seignar on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:34 am

    Personally, depends on the kind of heal. If you use Estus, you broke the rules of the duel since you are using an advantage you have over your opponent. If you heal by Humanity or Blessing, you broke the competitive rules of the duel, but not the rules of the duel (Weird huh?). If you heal by miracles, you broke no rules...in my book anyways.

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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:35 am

    Viral because many people hate and do not want me hear, they don't have to say it but I realize it. I can feel the harsh words on the back of my neck, whispered about and tucked away from my ears. It is no wonder we often complain about gankers and glitchers and get downrepped. The silent minority no longer wants us around, we are beyond our use and warrant. It's a new age, one which will bring about the death of this game.
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:45 am

    @ Siegnar- I think one of the defining characteristics of the Souls series is that there are no 'rules' persay thus no need to adhere religiously to a specific style of play. This is because IMO the souls series is about the nature of humanity. Infact almost all PVP is really just a community centric construct.

    Now Im not saying that Estusting in a duel is fair but lets be honest. Fair went out the window several hours after the game was released.

    And as soon as invaders learnt how to glitch in 99 divine blessings the side with the disadvantage just took a dump on the side with the advantage.

    So really I struggle to understand 'competitive rules' as a facet of this game.

    @ Tolvo- The older generation are being slowly torn down and replace by the new. It is a sad day when a veteran of many ganks in the forest is treated so harshly in his own forum, his pace of rest and refuge......sad


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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Seignar on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:11 am

    The competitive rule as the community has placed them were that healing was not allowed, however, I think Miracle healing is permitted since it requires you to invest points into it. Healing makes fight needlessly drawn out. Besides that it grants a weak spot to low VIT characters since people could just Hornet Ring 1 hit them since they would never be able to recover while they can tank hits and live to get a full heal.

    So, consumable healings has its reasons for being "against the competitive rules" because it brings an unfair advantage to tanks.

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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:10 am

    Seignar wrote:The competitive rule as the community has placed them were that healing was not allowed, however, I think Miracle healing is permitted since it requires you to invest points into it. Healing makes fight needlessly drawn out. Besides that it grants a weak spot to low VIT characters since people could just Hornet Ring 1 hit them since they would never be able to recover while they can tank hits and live to get a full heal.

    So, consumable healings has its reasons for being "against the competitive rules" because it brings an unfair advantage to tanks.

    If you played Demon's Souls you would remember those regen faith builds that lasted forever...... I loved fighting them.......................


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    [11:10:14 p.m.] Robb "the Ensign_": FATALITY!
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:47 am

    I remember. I was one of them. To be fair, it took us longer to kill everyone else as well, we had way lower damage than most competitive builds.


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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:08 am

    Yeah I was the Dual Kats man myself....I had so much trouble with those damn mirdan hammer builds.


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    [[11:09:53 p.m.] Robb "the Ensign_": The sexual tension is enough to blow wyrms head off
    [11:10:04 p.m.] Kwith: Woah.
    [11:10:08 p.m.] Kwith: ..Woah.
    [11:10:14 p.m.] Robb "the Ensign_": FATALITY!
    [11:10:16 p.m.] ◥▶️_◀️◤ TehInfamousAmos: AHAHAHAHAHAHA
    [11:10:19 p.m.] Tolvo: You want to see sexual tension.
    [11:10:20 p.m.] ◥▶️_◀️◤ TehInfamousAmos: BEASTIALITY
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:15 am

    IE You pushlocked people? I was so confused the first time someone did that. The cursed kiji guys were my least favorite to fight. I had to play the range game with them.

    My main was the great axe, but the hammer was backup.


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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:36 am

    Tolvo wrote:It's always great to get repped down for no reason at all.

    Sorry about your downrep, but it wasn't me, I don't even know where the Rep button is lol!
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by OrnsteinBro on Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:42 am

    Healing in a fight is just asking for a backstab.


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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Gingimaru on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:53 pm

    Healing is fine in a PvP. especially when everyone in PvP seems to cheat and glitch and for some reason have weaponry that does over 1k base despite there not being a single weapon in the game where 1k base is possible!!!!
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:05 pm

    I have no Idea what you're talking about, but I can quite easily hit for over 1k damage. Whats your setup? And what is killing you? How much damage per hit does it do to you? Maybe we can figure out what the problem is


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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Gingimaru on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:20 pm

    im in my first play through, i've just done anor londo, i'm level 88, i dont have any +15 weapons but i do have a couple of lightning and a chaos fire weapon at +5. i swap between silver knight set +5 and giants armor +5 and swap between havels shield and the grass crest shield, i've got most if not all of the embers in the game, and i have a str/end build. about 26 vit, 35 end, 50 str, 18 dex, normal res, 14 intel, and 8 faith.

    they hit anywhere between 700-over 1k easily. which to me makes no sense seein as i have some of the best armor in the game which should surely block some of that. and having checked through pretty much every weapon in the game and none of them do 1k base. and its not like he could have been a well higher soul level. highest he could have been is 97

    the back stabs hurt (which is fair enough but not when people glitch behind me). but when people do a normal hit and it takes off like 3/4 of my health and it looks like there only using (for example) a katana, or a spear or something. so i know its not any of the pimp weapons like the dragon sword or something similar.

    what are you using to get over 1k damage seein as in all my research it isnt possible..... even my chaos +5 great sword with 10 humanity only pumps out MAYBE 800 damage
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:29 pm

    Are they buffing at all, there is a spell called Power Within that vastly increases damage. As well if they are using a +15 weapon, their damage won't split on you. Also your health is very low for PvP, 40 vitality with a MoM is common in PvP, so people will more than likely have much more survivability than you.
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:37 pm

    You're aware that the number that the game shows you for your defense isn't how much damage your armor blocks, and that the number that the game shows you for you weapon isn't how much damage it does? Its much more complicated than that.

    The number shown for your defense isn't how much damage it stops, its a representation. It represents a hidden equation, best described as damage mitigation. Ie what percentage of the damage is stopped. It is not a static percentage, IE (i'm just making up numbers) 400 defense doesn't stop 35% of the damage from every attack, the percentage blocked seems to decrease as AR increases. The exact math is still a mystery.

    The number shown for your weapon is called AR or Attack Rating. The AR is factored into the hidden equation, against your defense to determine damage.

    Elemental weapons generally do less damage than regular weapon. This is because elemental weapons don't have 1 large AR, but two small ARs, both of which must go through a separate defense. So instead of the armor stopping 40% of the damage once like for regular weapons, it stops 40% of the damage twice for elemental.

    Hope that helps.


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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Gingimaru on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:48 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Are they buffing at all, there is a spell called Power Within that vastly increases damage. As well if they are using a +15 weapon, their damage won't split on you. Also your health is very low for PvP, 40 vitality with a MoM is common in PvP, so people will more than likely have much more survivability than you.

    most of the people dont use it as i would see their health drop wouldnt i?. whats MoM?
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:49 pm

    Mask of the mother, it's a white mask with back cowl that increase max HP when worn.

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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Gingimaru on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:06 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:You're aware that the number that the game shows you for your defense isn't how much damage your armor blocks, and that the number that the game shows you for you weapon isn't how much damage it does? Its much more complicated than that.

    The number shown for your defense isn't how much damage it stops, its a representation. It represents a hidden equation, best described as damage mitigation. Ie what percentage of the damage is stopped. It is not a static percentage, IE (i'm just making up numbers) 400 defense doesn't stop 35% of the damage from every attack, the percentage blocked seems to decrease as AR increases. The exact math is still a mystery.

    The number shown for your weapon is called AR or Attack Rating. The AR is factored into the hidden equation, against your defense to determine damage.

    Elemental weapons generally do less damage than regular weapon. This is because elemental weapons don't have 1 large AR, but two small ARs, both of which must go through a separate defense. So instead of the armor stopping 40% of the damage once like for regular weapons, it stops 40% of the damage twice for elemental.

    Hope that helps.



    no that doesnt help at all...sorry. in fact it makes things more confusing. so what do these numbers actually mean? if i have 400 pys defense and 400 fire defense. then surely a sword that does 400 pys and 400 fire should do nothing. if thats not the case then yeah its just very confusing and just adds to my now growing dislike for the game.....

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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Gingimaru on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:08 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Mask of the mother, it's a white mask with back cowl that increase max HP when worn.



    one or 2 may have done. but most tend to just be wearing random pieces of armor.
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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:22 pm

    No. Its not a direct comparison. 400 defense doesn't stop 400 damage. 600 attack doesn't do 600 damage (assuming 0 defense).

    Using proven examples:

    My 420 AR weapon will do 250 damage to someone with 420 defense.

    my 420 weapon will do 330 damage to someone with 200 defense.

    The numbers are abstract representations of the values that will be used to determine how much damage you giva and recirve, not blanket values that tell you exactly how much damage you will give or recieve.


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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:32 pm

    Its more complex math, so that every weapon always does at least some damage.

    If you are looking for games where 600 attack translates directy into 600 damage, and 400 defense stops 400 damage, then you're in the wrong genre, playing games made by the wrong people.

    To preserve balance, thats just not how things are done in games with rpg type leveling systems.


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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Rynn on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:40 pm

    Slarg232 wrote:Is it truely bad form to heal in the middle of a fight? I'm just wondering, because if someone (You or Him) can create enough space between the two of you to be able to pop a humanity/estus flask, doesn't he deserve the heal?

    Yes, it prolongs the fight, but I don't see how that's necessarily a bad thing. Can someone explain this to me?

    Quick question for anyone new to the thread; is Replenishment, cast at the beginning of the battle, considered "Healing" in the traditional "Don't do it" sense for PVP?
    Healing was more accepted in demon souls because it was even. Both players had the same method of healing, and it was just as efficient. However in dark souls, the host can heal in less then a second, and a phantom must wait like 2 seconds to finish healing.

    IMO, this is where the "do not heal" mentality comes from.

    Replenishment, or any other form of healing is fine with me under most considitions. i do not agree with the "I'll shove my back against a wall while in full havels and chug estus" mentality of some players, as that provides an occasion where you can not be punished. i believe balance in PvP is created by your actions being able to be punished. And under almost every circumstance, a heal can be punished, and so it should be allowed.

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    Re: Is healing mid fight really all that bad?

    Post by Gingimaru on Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:05 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:

    No. Its not a direct comparison. 400 defense doesn't stop 400 damage. 600 attack doesn't do 600 damage (assuming 0 defense).

    Using proven examples:

    My 420 AR weapon will do 250 damage to someone with 420 defense.

    my 420 weapon will do 330 damage to someone with 200 defense.

    The numbers are abstract representations of the values that will be used to determine how much damage you giva and recirve, not blanket values that tell you exactly how much damage you will give or recieve..

    so where are these definitive numbers? there must be something somewhere that tells you what damage your weapon will do? if someone could just explain exactly how damage and attack power are worked out it would help a lot more than saying "600 damage doest mean you will do 600 damage" seeing as people are hitting me with weapons i KNOW dont have massive attack values yet do devestating damage. there must be something i or they are doing

    Forum Pirate wrote:

    Its more complex math, so that every weapon always does at least some damage.

    If you are looking for games where 600 attack translates directy into 600 damage, and 400 defense stops 400 damage, then you're in the wrong genre, playing games made by the wrong people.

    To preserve balance, thats just not how things are done in games with rpg type leveling systems.

    erm well thats not how its worked in well... every other RPG i've played so the likes of dragon age, final fantasy, skyrim etc. it says damage is X and it does X so yes i am in the right genre of game. i just need it explaing as to what say a great sword with 400 damage rating actually translates to

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