IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

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    IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by Jester's Tears on Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:02 am

    Well, since im new here. I do not know if this topic has been up before BUT.

    My idea to KINDA stop backstabs is SHIELD ON BACK REDUCES BACKSTAB DAMAGE.
    It's a pretty obvious idea so it has SURLEY been up before.


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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by BartholomewWenceslas on Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:05 am

    The shield on back thing has indeed been brought up quite a few times. Most people don't like the idea though because it would cause everyone to just 2hand their weapon and then use the grass crest shield on their back. It would basically make all builds slightly more similar, and it would punish people who don't use a shield at all


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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by Heroez Blade on Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:06 am

    Hmmmm, that is an interesting idea. I dont think it would work though because whenever i 2 hand a weapon the enemy can still backstab me and deal good damage. Your thought could lead to some new strategies on how to counter backstabs though.


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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by Jester's Tears on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:07 am

    ANOTHER way to make the ''Shields reduceds backstab'' theory work is that it would depend on what shield you were using, like:

    Small shields = 5-10% reduced
    Medium shields = 15-20% reduced
    BIG shields = 30-40% reduced

    If there is something you don't agree on, simply say so.
    It's only an Idea to KINDA stop all THOSE GOD DAMNED BACKSTABERS...


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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by vageta31 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:48 am

    Ideas like this just herd people into yet another playstyle or item choice which further reduces the already low diversity in this game.



    Part of the problem with all of these "backstab fixes", is that people don't understand the importance of backstabs in pvp and how reducing them would make the system even worse. Backstabs play a very important role in that they are meant to punish players for doing risky things. I've even seen people suggesting backstabs be disabled in pvp, which is probably the dumbest suggestion I've ever witnessed.

    Without backstabs, or even having them with reduced effectiveness, some very predictable things would happen. Poise would become more important than even now. Why? Because backstabs effectively cancel out the animation of the opponent. Take that away and it's a free for all heal-fest. You'd see people in full Havel's using a wolf ring who can just stand boldly in front of you and chug estus/divine blessings/humanity while you helplessly wail away at them. "So then you use a big weapon to break their poise.." Again, predictable. Which means now everyone is using heavy weapons to combat the huge poise numbers and it turns into a button mash fest to see how will run out of healing items first. Even the shield reduction would have a similar outcome. Since backstabs have reduced damage you can effectively risk healing even if you eat a backstab as your heal amount will be more than the damage you recieve.



    Does that sound fun to you? Doesn't to me.



    There is nothing wrong with backstabs in general as they are easily avoided once you've got enough experience in dealing with them. Personally my feelings are.. if you get backstabbed it's because you've basically allowed your opponent access to your back. Once you understand how not to do that, you've essentially reached a level that apparently not many have. If there was one complaint in general about backstabs it's that they bypass armor and do a bit too much damage. If one were to try and "fix" backstabs without totally changing the balance in pvp then there is a more elegant solution.



    1. Reduce the backstab window, ie; the size of the cone behind your opponent that allows you to peform them. Currently it allows backstabs to be performed without truly being behind your opponent.

    2. Only allow full damage to be recieved when you interrupt specific animations. Things like item usage, weapon recovery, casting spells, running, etc.. This retains the punishment part of the backstab because honestly if you get caught in any of those situations then you should take a ton of damage. If you play sloppy enough to swing an incredibly slow weapon and miss, then the opponent should be able to take advantage of your mistake.



    By the way, the shield on the back doesn't really make sense anyway. A "backstab" is simply meant to portray a sneak attack to one's vital areas. In most cases a shield doesn't cover your kidneys and a small weapon would easily slip into your side or below smaller shields. To combat the obvious abuse of this mechanic then I'd say any shield worn on your back that can reduce backstab damage should automatically reduce your roll speed by one slot. If you've got fast roll or dwgr flip, then you go to medium roll, and so on. That way those that want to play defensively must pay a price, whereas others who want to retain mobility don't get the extra protection.


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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by DamageCK on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:04 am

    My only beefs with BS at this point are chains and how easy it is to just roll BS pretty much anything.


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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:12 am

    Vageta your points are good but you bring up a contradiction. You dont have to be "punished for doing something wrong" to be BSed. You just have to not understand lag fully. You can be BSed while facing someone or dodging their attempted BS. The BS window behind yo is far too big considering lag.


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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:19 am

    Though I would use different words, I agree with Vageta. A narrowed hitbox, I'd say a 60-90 degree hitbox personaly (instead of the current 180 degree hitbox,) would be sufficient to make backstabs punishs for missed swings or spells and sneak attacks, rather than the punish for letting the opponent get beside you that it is.

    Its a punish for not understanding, responding to, or correctly judging lag in those circumstances Dough. Wether that deserves to be punished is a different issue.


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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by Slarg232 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:39 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Vageta your points are good but you bring up a contradiction. You dont have to be "punished for doing something wrong" to be BSed. You just have to not understand lag fully. You can be BSed while facing someone or dodging their attempted BS. The BS window behind yo is far too big considering lag.

    What he's saying is that that's the main point of Backstabs; as Punishment for doing something like using an item or swinging a heavy weapon. And yes, unless your getting lagstabbed or similar, you shouldn't be being backstabbed unless you dun goofed up. winking
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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:41 am

    ^And my point, which you missed, was that BSes arent just limited to those things. You get "punished" for so many other things thanks to lag.


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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by Slarg232 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:46 am

    DoughGuy wrote:^And my point, which you missed, was that BSes arent just limited to those things. You get "punished" for so many other things thanks to lag.



    That's why I put "Unless your getting Lagstabbed" silly
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    Re: IDEA to KINDA stop BACKSTABS

    Post by vageta31 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:55 am

    I agree that those that don't understand lag will continue to be punished. However, the answer is not to complain about how it could be fixed(this isn't aimed at TC, just a general statement), but to simply strive to understand so that you can avoid it. Something they often don't seem to realize is that lag affects both sides. They seem to assume that it's only them suffering from lag, and somehow the opponent is immune, which is silly. I used to get backstabbed a lot and get frustrated when i first started playing, but eventually a light went off inside my head and I made a simple discovery. Everytime I got backstabbed it was my own doing. I unintentionally allowed the opponent to reach my back by whatever action I had just performed. Once I understood this I found it quite easy to avoid them, and anytime it happened it was simply because I allowed it to happen by a bad decision.



    There is a simple exercise a player can perform to figure this out for themselves. On their next invasion they focus only on one thing. Avoiding backstabs. Don't attack, don't sit still, don't use an item, don't cast a spell, etc.. Don't do anything but avoid your opponent and absolutely under no circumstances move towards him. If he attempts to strafe you, then back away. Don't get fancy and try to roll near him, just simply back away with your shield up. After a few minutes of this simple exercise a player should finally understand that an opponent CAN NOT BACKSTAB YOU unless you do something that allows it. It is impossible, due to the way the game is designed, for an opponent to backstab you if you are moving away from them even under laggy conditions. At this point a player should realize thinking back that every backstab they've encountered has been in response to something they've done. Once this happens their entire pvp experience will change and they can actually begin to strategize in a different way.

    People are not mindful of their opponents gear and actions and are punished for it. If you see an opponent in heavy armor you should be able to gauge what their approximate poise level is. If you're using a light weapon then you should know that if you attack in close range then they can easily walk through it and backstab you. If you're constantly getting roll bs'd then you should understand that they only work when you attack predictably and your opponent is waiting for it. If you're getting strafed then you should learn how to easily turn that into your own backstab as punishment.



    I could go on and on, but the point is if you're getting consistently backstabbed then it's because you are inadvertently allowing it. You either must change your methods to combat this, or stubbornly continue to play as you are and be frustrated.



    It's tough love, but honestly people must at some point either give up or come to the harsh realization that they are their own worst enemy. Anytime you attack, cast a spell, stand still, or even attack an opponent you are offering them an attempt to counter you. A huge part of pvp is learning how not to play in a predictable manner so that an experienced opponent can capitalize on this. If your opponent is wearing heavy armor and you mash r1 with a rapier then yes it is your own fault if you get poise bs'd. If you're using magic or a slower weapon and your opponent rolls through it and backstabs you, then yes it is your own fault for doing it.


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