dispatching dm misinformation.

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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:44 am

    OrnsteinBro wrote:I dunno, maybe there are fewer Darkmoons or something and so it's easier to encounter the unsporting ones, but in my experience I've had more Darkmoons run off to heal with humanity/blessings or try to aggro monsters on me (in the middle of a duel) than I've had Darkwraiths do.

    This is speaking from experience hosting solely at the kiln, so experiences in other areas may vary, but I rarely see Darkwraiths pull these 'unsavoury' tactics. Usually DWs will just outright try to kill you, and if they die they die. No biggie.

    There are righteous Darkmoons all right, but the percentage of duckwads invading via blue orb is much higher.
    Observation bias and a self perpetuating cycle. IE, So many people see DMs a pricks that few join except to be pricks, which makes fewer non-pricks join and some non-pricks quit, repeat ad nauseam. If player stopped labeling dms pricks as a whole, there would be one less reason not to join, reversing this cycle.

    Thats kind of the point here, to explain the mechanics and eliminate some bias towards the covenant as a whole. There are pricks everywhere, why DMs are satan where DWs are fine is baffling, especially as I'd wager there are more d*ickwraith griefers at sl 20 than there are DMs intentionally invading players 40 sls lower than them. All I ask is that people assign their displeasure where it belongs, with the individual responsible.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Jovias-86 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:52 am

    We should start indicting invaders every single chance we get guys...
    This way DM invasions will be so much better.



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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:12 am

    My calculations call it 352 Mag Def, not 370 at SL120 (at 38 Humanity it gets up to 370).
    - To wield a Falchion (my preferred lightweight PvP weapon) in Giant Set/Big Hat with the MLGS on my back, I'd need 66 END if I'm wearing both Havel's and the RoFaP!
    - If I don't feel like committing to the RoFaP, it's 87 END! If I use the Spell Stoneplate Ring, though, my Mag Def does go up to 402, which I'll admit is pretty high.

    To counter SLB:
    Ditch the MLGS, so just Falchion equipped. Full Giant's Set, replace leggings with Blood-Stained Skirt.
    - With ONLY Havel's Ring (no need for RoFaP), I need a mere 60 END to fast roll.
    - Use the other slot as the Thunder Stoneplate Ring, and your Ltg Def goes up to 346. At 38 Humanity, goes up to 368.

    So, with only two items equipped (to match your Big Hat + MLGS), I have immediately matched your proposed Mag Def with Ltg Def!

    Finally, you're ignoring my point about shields - if Ltg Dmg is reduced by 65, 70, 80 or even 90% (again TWENTY medium shields with over 50% Ltg Dmg reduction) when it hits your shield, that damage is immediately reduced. So, when you factor in your Ltg Def, you actually have a decent cushion and the ability to have a slightly lower Ltg Def, given the preceding immediate Dmg reduction. When only TWO medium shields have greater than 42% Magic Dmg reduction (not even 50%), the average player is depending on the extra points in Mag Def to make up for the lesser reduction.

    I suppose if you're 2H a weapon, this doesn't matter, but again - with the simple equipping of 2 items, I have matched your Mag Def with Ltg Def. It is JUST as easy to up your Ltg Def as your Mag Def, and even EASIER if take into account END scores. If a player is using a shield, the greater and more common Ltg Dmg reduction will more than likely outweigh the greater Mag Def, in the end.

    Finally, as I said before - if a cast of GMB is enough to break your PvP experience, either you or your toon aren't very good, anyway, and you probably deserve to lose. Hell - keep a SLB attuned in case your opponent casts GMB! You can literally switch to your second right-hand slot, and then back to your weapon, and then immediately cast any non-magical buff, whereas your opponent cannot un-cast GMB and is stuck with a useless Def buff.

    It's not that hard to defend yourself against anything in PvP except lag.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:32 am

    Buffing magic defense to 370 doesn't require a ring slot, with said ring slot , using my previous mentioned set up it can hit 420, switch to the maiden skirt and its 457, if you have both faith and int you can use a second mlgs to 497. If you're dedicated to a fualt, the speckeled ring will bump it to 522. Trying to harm that with dmb is the very definition of futile.

    I have no argument for your shield point beyond that shields can be upgraded to magic, but the same can be said of lightning, and that magic shield exsists.

    I cannot comment on your build without seeing it.

    I wasn't saying that gmb should ruin a build, only that it negates dmb almost entirely, and one can cast it as soon as they see the dm start the buff, or even spawn, to render dmb ineffective and the same cannot be said of lightning.


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo, said dex when I ment faith.)


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by swordiris on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:52 am

    Yes DMB isn't as bad as people think.

    What if it was lightning damage? What would people think of that? The hate would be much worse.

    With that being said I do get hatemail for DMB. I think the main caoncern is that people hate miracles and faith builds.

    Look at the miracles people complain about. DMB, WotG, All heals, TWoP.....People hate faith in general.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:04 am

    On top of that, actually, your solution, to get roughly eqivilant lightning defense to mine in magic, and requiring a ring slot, required a physical defense and poise drop as well, only helping my point, that stacking magic defense (will switch my terminology here) has a lesser effect on many, I'd even go as far as to say most, character builds than lightning does


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:08 am

    Well, your previous setup DOES require at least one ring slot for Havel's or RoFaP (or the DWGR if you wanna be a cheater), at least if you want to fast roll. If you don't care about ring slots, you can get 409 Ltg Def with Big Hat, Dingy chest/legs, Stone Gauntlets and both Ltg and Speckled ring.

    True, it's not quite 522, but I think it's enough to prove that you can get your Ltg Def reasonably high with minimal effort (or, at least as much effort as it takes to up your Mag Def).


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by zzombieboy on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:09 am

    Probably off topic, but I get moaned at for using Crystal Magic Weapon, nevermind DMB lol! My argument to them is that if I've sacrificed armour, poise, vit and end in order to achieve 50 intel/faith by 120, then why should I handicap myself by not maximising the potential of what is essentially a purely offensive build. These same people are usually using the MoM etc and so this quickly falls into an argument (I know, it's sad) about offensive vs defensive builds.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:14 am

    Switching from Giant Helm (original set) to Big Hat causes Phys Def and Poise Drop too, plus I'm wasting points on END to fast roll or I'm using both ring slots.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:18 am

    zzombieboy wrote:Probably off topic, but I get moaned at for using Crystal Magic Weapon, nevermind DMB lol! My argument to them is that if I've sacrificed armour, poise, vit and end in order to achieve 50 intel/faith by 120, then why should I handicap myself by not maximising the potential of what is essentially a purely offensive build. These same people are usually using the MoM etc and so this quickly falls into an argument (I know, it's sad) about offensive vs defensive builds.

    Why for using CMW? Seems like at 50 int/fth you'd be a bit of a glass cannon in melee, high risk high reward.

    Also, in terms of int/fth builds, you technically only need to get one of them up to 50 and then the other up to whatever the minimum is for whichever spells you want to cast (so, for CMW, you could have 50fth/24int, and still cast a CMW that scales with your 50fth with the Tin Darkmoon Catalyst.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by zzombieboy on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:25 am

    Exactly. Purely offensive builds scare people though. I dual wield TCC and a weapon at the same time though, so people don't like to get too close. However, people complaining about CMW, which I usually use on a straight sword no less, confuse me. People are too quick to cry 'cheap' when they see a buff, but the buff itself is not cheap - it's what you buff that can make it cheap. For example, buffing Bandit's Knife, Spear, special R2 weapon or a Rapier might be considered cheap, but surely not a straigt sword lol.

    Edit : I did mean 50 int or faith by the way, not both happy I rarely use RoFaP, and hardly ever use DWGR so it's low poise and vit to get 50 int and 45 dex.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:31 am

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:Well, your previous setup DOES require at least one ring slot for Havel's or RoFaP (or the DWGR if you wanna be a cheater), at least if you want to fast roll. If you don't care about ring slots, you can get 409 Ltg Def with Big Hat, Dingy chest/legs, Stone Gauntlets and both Ltg and Speckled ring.

    True, it's not quite 522
    That is my point, roll speed aside for the purpose of this debate because every roll speed can be quite effective in good hands which I've experienced, lightning defense requires more dedication to raise, and its still significantly lower than magic defense is with the big hat, giants, maiden combo at 120 with 40 faith and 0 humanity its 366 to 301, a 120 int instead is 344 to 301. If they use the mlgs or keep one off hand its 406 and 384 to 301, if they both keep off hand and use a mlgs primary its 446 to 301, none of this requiring a ring slot.

    If thats not heinously uneven defense stacking ability, I don't know what is. And with the way the system works, a build for nearly any weapon can achieve the 344 mark at 40 end, while maintaining a mid roll or the dwgr roll. Maybe to 50 if one simply refuses to menu swap or must have a great shield.


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:49 am

    Using my original comparison, simply adding the big hat to giants changes 0 humanity 9 faith on a 120 from 243, which sucks, to 309, which is passable. With lightning i'm aware on no non ring with even remotely comparable abilities to boost lightning defense, especially that nets a positive net defense change, and allows the player to maintain the 76 poise to resist ultra great weapon stunlocks.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by DarkW17 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:48 pm

    My stance is I am cool with all and anyone trying to kill me from any cov...the only people I HATE are dragons all dragons must die...then second I think one is cool and he even bows....they do the quick turn around and the daggers come flying!!!

    I am a darkwraith for life but I have had just as many darkwraiths heal or be cheap as I have darkmoons...your going to find jerks in every cov...I just block anyone who's an idiot or a 'try hard' in full giants and a DSS and move on!!

    I don't understand why people just don't block more people I block everyone that pisses me off....eventually I will block them all and dark souls will be perfect cheers

    Lol I was recording duels lastnight in the burg when a dragon glitcher summoned me I got a video of me eating daggers then blocking him as I die it was to funny!

    Also just for all you DM one of my toons is even a DM and I invade the forest with cracked reds then cast DMB its so funny...people are like wtf??


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:05 pm

    I just realized I'm currently between covenants with my SL120 SLB build! I was gonna go 99 Gravelord, but now, once I get to Anor Londo, I'm joining the Moon Brothers. I am going to invade, and I am going to start DMBing instead of SLBing. In fact, I'll shelf SLB entirely, even though I already came up with the idea of rebuffing with SLB to counter a GMB, which seems like it'd be pretty effective. Still, I will use DMB, and I will empirically test how 'heinously uneven' my opponents' defense really seems to be.

    Even your example of a 522 'super Mag Def' build suffers from the same weakness that you cry foul at from the get-go, which is that a singular cast of GMB would render it useless. In the end, I just really can't believe that, with all the possibilities and combinations of stats and equipment, a single cast of a miracle is going to render a PvP-designed toon useless, especially if it's an honorable duel.

    Even though I get that it is 'easier' to stack Mag Def due to a slightly wider variety of equip, it just seems to me that, in reality, it's not any more inconvenient to up any of your defenses - carrying a bunch of esoteric equipment in order to defend yourself against one specific type of encounter is just as annoying/unlikely whether it's Magic or Lightning, especially because stacking for one things leaves you vulnerable to others (actually, striving for sheer Ltg Def also inadvertently ups your Mag Def, but not necessarily vice versa, so it could be said Ltg Def is more convenient...but I digress). As DarkW said, I'm cool with all - the only point I'm trying to make is that, really, it's kind of just six in one, half dozen in the other.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:47 pm

    I never said it was going to render a build useless, but render magic useless. Its hardly a prohibitive collection of items to hit 384-406. Its an armor combo with among the best in class physical defense, with very reasonable weight, and 56 poise. If one 2hands their weapon, slap a mlgs in the off hand and done. Otherwise, one still has 344-366 magic defense, the boost actually coming from armor that weighs LESS than most other in slot, meaning it is quite possibly beneficial in terms of equipment weight to boost the magic defense,.

    That there is gmb, only adds to my point because its ANOTHER way to do it, allowing a faith build to stack physical or fire defences instead, also with relative ease.

    My 522 magic defense build was not a suggestion, but a point, exactly how high magic defense could get if focused on, while maintaining physical defense and poise levels. It cannot be done to nearly the same effect with lightning.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:19 am

    I understand your points, but I still just don't think any of it will matter in practice. According to the character builder, at 30 Fth (minimum), DMB deals 52 more damage than SLB...not a huge deal, but just think about the implications - every two hits, that's 104 EXTRA damage. That adds up, especially if you're going hit-for-hit.

    Also, I looked into upgrading shields to Magic or Ltg, and turning a shield to anything other than normal nullifies your increased stability (save for crystal upgrade)! So, right off the bat, that sucks. On top of a total loss of stability increase, turning ANY medium shield 'magic' increases it's Mag Dmg Red to just barely above 50% at +10! That means you spend a slab for just barely above 50%!

    Without turning a shield Ltg, there are twenty options that give you above 50% from the get-go. So, not only is DMB dealing over 50 more damage right off the bat, but if your opponent has a shield, a SLB's already-lesser-damage is being nerfed even further. Compare this to DMB, which is only nerfed more than 40% if somebody has one of two specific shields, one of which is unupgradable, or if they've dropped a slab on a regular-*** shield, at the expense of stability.

    This increased damage in DMB, the greater and more common lightning damage reduction in shields (like, literally 10x more options), and the more common nature of magic in general (as in, there's a whole slew of spells that deal mag dmg and like two that deal ltg dmg) all come together to justify Mag Def being a little more common, to me.

    Other than just repeating myself, though, I'm willing to put my words into action and really test this. I'll post my results whenever things start to turn monotonous...but I'm betting so hard that DMB, especially at +3, is going to make PvP like butter!


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:53 am

    Not 52 more damage, 52 higher AR, big difference, and that 52 more AR will very likely have to a magic defense ranging from even with, to hundreds of points above lightning defense, especially if we're talking lighter armors which generally have higher magic defense.

    I won't deny that dmb has the potential to do more damage, but not much more, however it also has the potential to do FAR less. Agains typical fill giants/mask guys, dmb is better, against people smart enough to know 243 isn't passable magic defense, it isn't likely to.

    I'm not sure why you're harping on stability, even my turtles don't need stability over 40. I however already conceded that shields were, in general, better at stoping lightning than magic. I simply fail to see it as terribly relivant. The 50% reduction straight cuts the damage in half before defense is factored, so the 50% is quite capable of being adequate protection, and to repeatedly block a magically buffed weapon with a shield and setup unsuited to it is foolishness.


    While I prefer dmb because it looks cool, its inferior. Bottom line. As I said, it has slightly higher potential damage, but its far easier to negate it entirely. Slb will quite conststantly deal damage roughly (as in within 40 points) equal to or higher than dmb, where there are numerous options to simply shut dmb down. Anyone half committed can largely shrug dmb off, only the truly dedicated can even begin to do it with slb.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:49 am

    Sunlight Blade looks cooler






    lol

    But wait, forril though, the builder misnomers AR as dmg? e.g.:


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:42 am

    Yes, it does. Thats 309 AR. 172x1.8
    172 being canvas talismine magic adjust at 30 faith and 1.8 being the multiplier applied by slb to your magic adjust to determine the strength of the buff.
    .8x172= 137.6

    137.6+172 =309.6


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by baby_beavis on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:30 am

    This thread lost me at page 3 or w/e when numbers started being thrown in, but back to the original post/s, here's something that makes me laugh with DWs being invaded by DMs some people don't seem to be aware of.
    Even though I'm not entirely, positively sure about the actual facts, since I was only in DM cov long before I became aware of this, and therefore haven't tested anything in game; I am 99.9% sure that I had read it on a wiki or forum somewhere, that when you invade someone as a DW or cracked orb and get indicted, and logged into the book, it's you gamer tag/psn ID that gets listed, not the toon name. Meaning, if you invade and get indicted with a lvl 120 or w/e toon, then you are subject to DM targetting on all your toons; new, lv1, unsinned, etc. More like YOU got indicted as the player, over there in your living room; and you've been added to the book of the guilty as a perpetrator. The long arm of the law haha. It's not a glitch.


    As to the BB glitch, I'm pretty sure that that does not carry over sin as ppl thought, because that one I actually tested; try a non indicted account whatsoever, sin on a toon via kill NPC or betray covenants (i.e not via indictment), then BB glitch and go to Oswald to absolve. He will tell you you are not sinned.
    I think the reason it was thought it does carry sin, is because of the previous reason, i.e that you had already been indicted on your account. I may be mistaken about all this, but this point kinda implies that the above is true. (that is, if the BB glitch doesn't actually carry over sin, then the fact that it's your account that gets indicted holds true).
    It's kinda cool actually, like From gave us the chance to tag players better than .....; ah the value of indictments!

    Anyway, that is for fellow moonies, who might like to go screen the burg, parish etc when they are not too busy. I've played alot there helping newbies with bosses, on my lvl 3, dropping indictments for the host to pick up, just in case. Thanks to the memories of being one shotted with lightning/fire weapons on any new chars without fail.


    So please go check if this is true lol.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:39 am

    Moving tomorrow or I'd test myself, but each person in the book has the character responsible visible at the touch of a button, and many players have multiple entries with different levels of sin. What would be the point of that if 1 indictment made ALL your characters elegible for dm invasion?


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:41 am

    Just go to 2 different toons and use the book on both. It'll have different values.


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by baby_beavis on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:56 am

    Yes your are absolutely right, but I'm saying that that information is out there somewhere; on a wiki or forum, and the fact the the BB glitch does not carry over those non-indcitement sins, it might just be true if people have also reported that they actually did get invaded by DMs on new non sinned toons.


    The BB glitch I tested, and for the rest I didn't, I just immediately assumed it was true when I heard people got invaded by DMs on new toons; but you have one really good point here that literally baffles me now; regarding that you see people with multiple entries and different offense values. Although they are actually listed by account.


    Maybe we can test by getting 1 toon indicted, then starting a new char and checking if you have more then 1 entry in the book? Or a friend try blue orb you? Because there is a bit more pieces to this that I would be surprised if it actually was a glitch at this point.


    Dammit, back to the drawing board


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    baby_beavis
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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

    Post by baby_beavis on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:10 am

    1 sec, I'm actually playing on patch 1.0 atm to test that painted world gravelord thing and other things and can't check the book right now because i'm not online.
    I know there are multiple entries, but I remember seeing alot of them listed right after each other or close. Could it be that sins are inherited by subsequent toons, but lowered only per toon (being killed)?


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    Re: dispatching dm misinformation.

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