Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:23 pm

    Problem with DWGR is while it dominates PvP, everyone here knows what would then in turn dominate if it was gotten rid of. (wolf/havel ring combo)

    It's a bit of a crutch, letting you get more poise, defence, equipment to have fastest roll possible and giving you a crazy good dodge, but in the same way just because you use it doesn't make you any worse a player, it's just a part of your style of fighting, same as using a lot of spells, or liking certain weapons in PvP etc.

    It's sad when you see a lot of mom trolls, but there's always something to pick up the mantle of most OP item. You can't perfectly balance a game and make everything equally good (not that would ever happen but still), without removing variety.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:29 pm

    I have my opinions on the DWGR, but i don't have some personal vendetta against the players who use it. While some may think i exaggerate how big of a problem DWGR is, i feel i am pretty realistic and grounded with my complaints. I think some people mainly have an issue with me calling it a "crutch" or "easy mode", like you said. Which i will stand by my opinions on that, it makes the game easier(imo). I really don't care about the weapons/spells/armor people use. I actually think for how many spells/weapons/armor sets there are in the game fromsoft did a pretty good job balancing it.

    I will always stand by my claim that the dwgr is by far the most unbalanced item in the game, even including spells ext. On top of that, and probably my biggest problem with it, is just how stupid it looks. It really sucks the atmosphere right out of the game when every player is doing hand springs in a huge suit of armor. I really feel that fromsoft included the ring in the game as an aid for players new to the souls games. In a way it was a good thing, i think theres a lot of players out there(not just who pvp) who might have gotten over frustrated and gave up if not for the dwgr. Once i found the dwgr, the bosses i was having trouble with became a lot easier. Maybe fromsoft included it as a way for new players to get the hang of the game. Kinda like training wheels, i just hope the next game in the series takes them off. This is just my opinion, but you gotta admit the ring is pretty unbalanced(not saying its game breaking) and makes not only pvp but pve a lot easier to handle.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Jansports on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:37 pm

    Strictly speaking about the DWGR's influence on PvE I agree with you. It makes it quite a lot easier. While now I can pretty much fast/mid roll and take basically no damage from every boss, this is after well over a dozen playthroughs. First time around Mid rolling the likes of O&S or 4Kids was not something I could do, and fast rolling even was a fair bit tricky, heaven forbid I missed a fast roll because that 11 poise weak defence armor I had on wasn't going to do a whole lot to stop smough's running attack.

    However in PvP power is relative. Since every player *can* use it I don't feel DWGR makes anything "easier" it is simply on the short list of rings with a big impact on PvP performance (probably at the top)

    Also Full Havel's flippers are some of the funniest looking things in this universe.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Joichiro on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:38 pm

    dude, if you are using the Dwgr and flipping in heavy armor then you are exploiting the game and that should be avoided. Everyone knows that the ring it's broken.

    I mean, this it's like a legal gap in a law or something like that. You know you can do it, but also know you are wrong.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Federally on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:42 pm

    omega Elf wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:If I'm fat rolling in full Havel's against a person using the DWGR, and I outmaneuver them, I'm probably better at fighting than they are.

    Can't you just decide, who was better, from the outcome of the fight?.
    Not by, deliberately going into a fight, handicapped (in your eyes),
    which really, should you lose, merely offers an excuse, from the fact,
    that perhaps you were outplayed.

    And also, your opponents, them seeing, that you are so clearly
    handicapped (fat rolling), is it not out of the question, they are
    infact, going easy on you, in which case, any sense, you may
    have, of you being better, is actually false.

    If Tolvo decided who was better based on who won he'd have to admit I'm better then him. And he doesn't wanna do that.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:49 pm

    Imagine if they had a trailer for the game, and it showed gameplay of a flipping mom tank just plowing through pve. I really think fromsoft is well aware of how goofy and out of place it looks. That demo from e3 that shows the sanctuary guardian boss fight(from pc/dlc) there was no dwgr footage shown. Everytime someone would play the demo one of a few random mid lvl builds would load up for the person to play the demo with. Not a single one included dwgr, despite it being the most popular ring for most peoples builds in pve and pvp. It would, in my opinion, make the game look kinda bad. Which is why i think they seem to avoid showing it in use during any of their promotional videos.

    The one thing i don't understand is, i feel the devs probably dislike the fact that all the hard work they put into each set of armor and each weapon ext is somewhat wasted since a majority of players go for the "best" set up. I just can't picture the devs being happy with the state the meta game is in. Unless they knew what they were doing, in which case they are the kings of trolling.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Federally on Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:21 pm

    Great post FPN, +1!

    That really is a good point I have never considered and reminds me of the first time I used the DWGR. I was wearing full BK armor and my was in the room and commented at how stupid it looked. The DWGR really stands out as an odd item that just doesn't fit the world. People get confused when you use the word realistic in relation to doing hand springs in a suit of armor since fantasy is inherintly not realistic. But within the world created by FROM the DWGR indeed feels wrong and doesnt seem realistic in context.

    One side note, in regards to so much being deemed useless by the player base and wasted work by devs. I would say that's much more a symptom of the poise mechanic than anything else. Many of us just arent good enough to fight perfect and avoid every hit from a UGS or 2H GS while we whittle away at some MoM tanks massive HP pool. So stunlocking surely deems most equipment useless, not DWGR.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:24 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:The one thing i don't understand is, i feel the devs probably dislike the fact that all the hard work they put into each set of armor and each weapon ext is somewhat wasted since a majority of players go for the "best" set up. I just can't picture the devs being happy with the state the meta game is in. Unless they knew what they were doing, in which case they are the kings of trolling.

    considering they did stuff like put in the douchey looking masks and heavy armour, they definitely made an effort to do some kind of trolling, they knew what would be the best stuff I reckon.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by DarkW17 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:29 pm

    I look at the DWGR as a defensive aid ie you wear more gear have more poise carry more weapons ect...what I am going for is a more offensive evasive setup...poise means little to me and the DWGR doesn't make me hit people harder...my newsest build will have neither DWGR or ring of FAP then I can use RTSR and Leo or hornets or bellowing all tools that let me do more dmg not take it!



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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:01 pm

    While not using the DWGR doesnt make you a superior player, it will make you a better player in the long run. Why? Because if you are fast rolling chances are you have less poise and are learning to dodge better, or you are med rollin g with the same poise and are learning to roll better as well. In my eyes its a personal thing. Would you rather use it and not need the extra practice and be a good fighter. Or would you not use it an put extra hours into practicing to become just as good a fighter without the DWGR? Personally I know prefer the second, because I can stop worrying about poise and really choose armour for looks.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Federally on Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:11 pm

    I have been playing Med roll with 92 poise all day and i love it. I just walk around while everyone is doing all their constant hand springs and I always have more stamina ready to go then they do. Can really make a big difference


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:21 am

    Who was the "best" player, in a pvp encounter (forget pve), should NOT be
    decided, by which player, went into the battle, using the most performance
    restricting setup, they could comfortably accommodate.

    Creating your build, making it fight worthy, the best it can be - assuming your
    playing to win (which if your not, you have no reason to complain), is just as
    much, a deciding factor, in who was better, as knowing when to swing your
    weapon.

    If someone wants to fight you, in some ridiculously unoptimized set-up, whilst
    you go all-out, to maximize yourself, they can't them claim, they are the better
    player, just because, they make things harder for themselves. That's the
    mentality of a Scrub. The game sets the rules, not you.


    Last edited by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:24 am

    Except I win often with such set ups, so I don't understand the claim you are making Omega.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:26 am

    I like how people assume "You are doing everything you can to win? Well then you arent playing to win."
    Why yes I am actually. Im playing to win with a handicap, to improve myself.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:28 am

    Tolvo wrote:Except I win often with such set ups, so I don't understand the claim you are making Omega.

    If you win, you were the better player, if you lose, you were not the
    better player.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Federally on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:28 am

    In order to win a good percentage of fights all you need is good BS defense. So winning often against randoms doesn't mean much in and of itself.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:29 am

    So you are agreeing with me now Omega, well that's nice to see this argument resolved.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:33 am

    DoughGuy wrote:I like how people assume "You are doing everything you can to win? Well then you arent playing to win."
    Why yes I am actually. Im playing to win with a handicap, to improve myself.

    Playing with a handicap, to improve yourself, is fine, I think everyone
    does that. Thats not really playing to win though, not seriously.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by N_Raist on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:36 am

    I do not fight to win. I fight to be the best of the fighters.

    Making victory your main objective is, well, absurd. It means that, if you had an INSTAWIN button, you would press it.


    Last edited by N_Raist on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:48 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:41 am

    N_Raist wrote:I do not fight to win. I fight to be the best of the fighters.

    Making victory your main objective is, well, absurd. It means that, if you had an INSTAWIN button, you would press it.

    How do you gauge who was the best if not by who won?
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:43 am

    Who dodged best, who had the best spacing, who managed to get hit the least, who managed to show greater technique. Skill doesn't mean a victory. If a martial artist fights a guy who has a knife and just barely is killed, is that guy a better fighter than the martial artist? No, he had a knife and only because of a fluke he even killed the guy. The Martial artist was a much better fighter, yet he still died.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Jansports on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:46 am

    If I beleive the DWGR is one of if not the strongest ring in the game why would practice *without* it improve my play for when I'm being serious? When I'm being serious I am using the ring, it has too many advantages to ignore. When I practice I practice with the ring, I know that stupid looking flip well. I know how far it goes, at which angle(s) to aim myself when unlocked to punish certain weapons strong attacks, I know when the I frames are.
    Playing without it would teach me to play without it better, but that wont always translate into improving my performance with the ring.
    Sometimes the best decision is to poise tank a hit in order to trade because your weapon out paces theirs. Similarly sometimes tank-BS is the best option. If I don't have the poise to do this then I cannot practice using these techniques for real fights.


    If I do want to trade hits I need to know / feel how much their weapon will hurt, if I'm used to getting hit when in robes rather than my non handicapped armor set I may misjudge it and my decisions will suffer as a result.
    What specifically can you practice, with the ring off, to become a better player that you couldn't with it on?


    Last edited by Jansports on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:47 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : My post looked ugly)
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:51 am

    Tolvo wrote:Who dodged best, who had the best spacing, who managed to get hit the least, who managed to show greater technique. Skill doesn't mean a victory. If a martial artist fights a guy who has a knife and just barely is killed, is that guy a better fighter than the martial artist? No, he had a knife and only because of a fluke he even killed the guy. The Martial artist was a much better fighter, yet he still died.
    Like in 300, they all died but were the better fighters. They won the war for Sparta by putting the fear of god into their enemies.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Federally on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:54 am

    Playing without the ring can show you its not as powerful as you think. It can become a crutch, you think its really great and forsake all else relying on a particular play style. It's not that someone not wearing the ring is better, its simply that they've broke off from the norm and experimented. And sometimes experimenting can lead to great things that may make you more effective later


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by N_Raist on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:54 am

    My thoughts about the ring: it wipes away all the choices of "slow tank vs quick and fragile". You can be a tank with maximum mobility, so there is no point for not using it if you are going for the best build. In other words, it creates an objective "better" gear.

    Of course, you can go without the ring, but you will be at a disadvantage. If it did not exist, we would see tanks fat rolling (with some planning, med rolling) and it would feel like "oh, he is a damn living tank, but I can outmanoeuvre him due to his obviously higher weight".

    What I would do: DWGR has effect if you are under X weight, and not under some percentage.

    omega Elf wrote:
    N_Raist wrote:I do not fight to win. I fight to be the best of the fighters.

    Making victory your main objective is, well, absurd. It means that, if you had an INSTAWIN button, you would press it.

    How do you gauge who was the best if not by who won?

    Skills. If you use and evasion-focused build and you did not get hit at all (except for a quite realistic OHK from 5 yards away), then you did show skills. If you got hit like 3000 times, you did not play well. As Tolvo said, you have lots of meters. Of course, you do not have an objective scale.

    Using what I told about the OHK. Is a flipping masked tank better because he OHKed you abusing bs' broken mechanics?


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