Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

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    omega Elf
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:55 am

    Tolvo wrote:Who dodged best, who had the best spacing, who managed to get hit the least, who managed to show greater technique. Skill doesn't mean a victory. If a martial artist fights a guy who has a knife and just barely is killed, is that guy a better fighter than the martial artist? No, he had a knife and only because of a fluke he even killed the guy. The Martial artist was a much better fighter, yet he still died.

    Skill and best are two different things. Sure have fun, but with pvp
    (I assumed), the game, is ultimately, getting a victory?
    You can't lose, and then claim, you were better than me, no matter
    how skillfully (in your eyes), you lost.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:58 am

    Hmm, so you are unskilled but consider yourself better if you get the victory even if it is by something ridiculous, like a lag spike? It sounds to me like now you are making excuses. I've had such instances where I've won by really shoddy means, a lag spike allowing me to BS someone three times before registering and meaning I killed them while they couldn't even see me. Did I win the fight? Yes. Was it more skillfull of me? No, was I a better player for doing it? No, I just got a lag spike and took advantage. The person would have totally beat me without it, because from how the fight was going I could tell he was a way better player than me. I won, but does that make me better? I think it comes down to what we define as better. The person who has the best understanding of how to play the game and is more skilled is better in my idea. Whoever wins the fight in your mind is. So we are arguing terms that neither of us can agree upon anyway.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Jansports on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:05 am

    N_Raist wrote:My thoughts about the ring: it wipes away all the choices of "slow tank vs quick and fragile". You can be a tank with maximum mobility, so there is no point for not using it if you are going for the best build. In other words, it creates an objective "better" gear.

    Of course, you can go without the ring, but you will be at a disadvantage. If it did not exist, we would see tanks fat rolling (with some planning, med rolling) and it would feel like "oh, he is a damn living tank, but I can outmanoeuvre him due to his obviously higher weight".

    What I would do: DWGR has effect if you are under X weight, and not under some percentage.

    omega Elf wrote:
    N_Raist wrote:I do not fight to win. I fight to be the best of the fighters.

    Making victory your main objective is, well, absurd. It means that, if you had an INSTAWIN button, you would press it.

    How do you gauge who was the best if not by who won?

    Skills. If you use and evasion-focused build and you did not get hit at all (except for a quite realistic OHK from 5 yards away), then you did show skills. If you got hit like 3000 times, you did not play well. As Tolvo said, you have lots of meters. Of course, you do not have an objective scale.

    Using what I told about the OHK. Is a flipping masked tank better because he OHKed you abusing bs' broken mechanics?


    If it wasn't because of DWGR there would simply be some other "Best" ring (I'd think Havel's or Wolf's) and people would complain about that ring instead, because it's boring, everyone uses it, it's so optimized and generic.


    Second. If My build can OHKO fragile builds then all I need is one hit, if I have to get poked in the face/ribs a few times in order to get that one hit off then so be it. If fragile-man is using say a great scythe (example) I know fairly well how to punish it's 1HR2, if I feel I can take a couple hits from it and still be alive I just might decide to 'let' him hit me with 1HR2 once or twice, in the hopes he'd use it again when I can OHKO him with a BS if he tries.


    Of course that's just an example but if you make a build that must hit average joe mommygiant 5-6 times and only has enough health to survive 1ish BSes then well something has gone terribly wrong. Essentially while your "in fight" skill may out pace theirs, their "pre fight" skill overwhelms you because their stats are so much nicer. The problem here is "pre fight" skill is about as easy to come by as Purple moss on a dead Ent.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:10 am

    Tolvo wrote:Hmm, so you are unskilled but consider yourself better if you get the victory even if it is by something ridiculous, like a lag spike? It sounds to me like now you are making excuses. I've had such instances where I've won by really shoddy means, a lag spike allowing me to BS someone three times before registering and meaning I killed them while they couldn't even see me. Did I win the fight? Yes. Was it more skillfull of me? No, was I a better player for doing it? No, I just got a lag spike and took advantage. The person would have totally beat me without it, because from how the fight was going I could tell he was a way better player than me. I won, but does that make me better? I think it comes down to what we define as better. The person who has the best understanding of how to play the game and is more skilled is better in my idea. Whoever wins the fight in your mind is. So we are arguing terms that neither of us can agree upon anyway.

    Winning through lag, I don't consider winning, just as if we were
    playing chess, and a gust of wind blows over your King, it's not
    really in the games coded rules, so i'll dismiss that.

    Also, being skillful, isn't all about, choosing the hardest option.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:12 am

    Lag isn't against the game's rules, connection is a part of it. So, I won by taking an advantage I had over my opponent. So there is really no difference. I didn't hack, I didn't do anything that wasn't a part of the game already. So by your idea I was the better fighter because I won.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Jansports on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:13 am

    Federally wrote:Playing without the ring can show you its not as powerful as you think. It can become a crutch, you think its really great and forsake all else relying on a particular play style. It's not that someone not wearing the ring is better, its simply that they've broke off from the norm and experimented. And sometimes experimenting can lead to great things that may make you more effective later


    Like what? If I were to look at pure numbers, there is no bizzare unfound combination of armors/weapons/stats I could make use of without the ring I couldn't with it on, excepting builds with two rings each not being dwgr (and I use a few of these I have a FaP/Leo build for example)


    While fighting there are attacks I can and cannot punish, attempting to learn this without the ring has no bearing on my performance with it on. simply moving, strafing playing footsie rings have no bearing on the skills built here.


    I just don't understand how Not using a tool available to me will improve my performance with it. (For example if I played Sagat and never used Tiger Uppercut when I practiced, why would anyone assume I would become a better player overall if I so willingly ignored situations where I did not use my best available option against my opponent?)
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:19 am

    Is there a weaker version of tiger uppercut you could use instead? One that is harder to time and doesn't give you as much benefit? If so using that move isntead would help you get your timing down, not just of that move but of all moves. If there isnt a move like that the situation isnt applicable, as you are comparing something with an alternative to something without one.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:26 am

    Tolvo wrote:Lag isn't against the game's rules, connection is a part of it. So, I won by taking an advantage I had over my opponent. So there is really no difference. I didn't hack, I didn't do anything that wasn't a part of the game already. So by your idea I was the better fighter because I won.

    Lag is against what I would consider a fair fight, as it usually benefits
    one player over the other. It's not an option to both players, who may
    both use it to equal advantage.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:27 am

    Fair fight? I thought winning wasn't about being fair?
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Jansports on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:38 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Is there a weaker version of tiger uppercut you could use instead? One that is harder to time and doesn't give you as much benefit? If so using that move isntead would help you get your timing down, not just of that move but of all moves. If there isnt a move like that the situation isnt applicable, as you are comparing something with an alternative to something without one.
    I can practice my roll timing just fine with flip. Practicing fast roll makes one better at fast rolling, If I were accustomed to fast rolling my spacing would be off as flip travels farther.


    I'm not saying challenging oneself if bad, I merely assert that anything that can be practiced without the ring on could be practiced with it on as well.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:42 am

    Tolvo wrote:Fair fight? I thought winning wasn't about being fair?

    Within the context of a game, one in which your bounded by a set of
    rules, anything within those rules is fair.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:43 am

    And there is a rule against having a bad connection?
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:45 am

    omega Elf wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:Fair fight? I thought winning wasn't about being fair?

    Within the context of a game, one in which your bounded by a set of
    rules, anything within those rules is fair.
    What about BS fishing and spears? They abuse lag to do things you shouldnt normaly be able to do. Are they fair?


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Federally on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:49 am

    Jansports wrote:
    Federally wrote:Playing without the ring can show you its not as powerful as you think. It can become a crutch, you think its really great and forsake all else relying on a particular play style. It's not that someone not wearing the ring is better, its simply that they've broke off from the norm and experimented. And sometimes experimenting can lead to great things that may make you more effective later


    Like what? If I were to look at pure numbers, there is no bizzare unfound combination of armors/weapons/stats I could make use of without the ring I couldn't with it on, excepting builds with two rings each not being dwgr (and I use a few of these I have a FaP/Leo build for example)


    While fighting there are attacks I can and cannot punish, attempting to learn this without the ring has no bearing on my performance with it on. simply moving, strafing playing footsie rings have no bearing on the skills built here.


    I just don't understand how Not using a tool available to me will improve my performance with it. (For example if I played Sagat and never used Tiger Uppercut when I practiced, why would anyone assume I would become a better player overall if I so willingly ignored situations where I did not use my best available option against my opponent?)

    I'm saying there are other potentially better combinations of rings, the perception is the dwgr is the end all be all but this isn't true. I took the thing off yesterday and medium rolled my way to one of my more impressive win streaks. Not having it made me better then when I used it because i had to try harder to not get caught out of position. Learning the art of the medium roll allows you to gain the benefits of other rings instead of relying on the DWGR.

    Now i would never say this makes me superior to any DWGR user, it just makes me different. Though i think I've personally improved through not using it.


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:52 am

    Tolvo wrote:And there is a rule against having a bad connection?

    I think their comes a point, where simple logic, has to come in to play, when
    deciding what is and isn't fair.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:53 am

    I'm just saying, if you try and make your argument off the basis of being amoral and objective, you should stick to your guns rather than bringing up very subjective matter and talking about personal ideas and opinions on what is fair and what isn't. winking
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:05 am

    Tolvo wrote:I'm just saying, if you try and make your argument off the basis of being amoral and objective, you should stick to your guns rather than bringing up very subjective matter and talking about personal ideas and opinions on what is fair and what isn't. winking

    Please explain, how is lag fair?
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:05 am

    When did I say it was fair?
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:07 am

    Tolvo wrote:When did I say it was fair?

    Please explain, through which logic, could lag, possibly be
    considered fair?
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:09 am

    Why would I explain that? I never said it was fair.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:13 am

    Tolvo wrote:Why would I explain that? I never said it was fair.

    You wouldn't explain that, because perhaps, it would defy logic?
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:15 am

    No it could be logical. Connection is a two way street, and in most cases both parties will feel the same delay. So I could argue for it being fair, I won't however after some of the issues I've seen. But there is a logic to such a claim, I just don't agree with the idea. But that's my personal opinion, which I don't take as fact. The thing about logic, is that being logical doesn't always lead to the right answer. Often it does, but not always. Understand that people who believe they have been kidnapped by aliens and were named their king, have a logic as to why they believe it is the truth. It's just flawed, and saying what is flawed and what isn't based off such subjective matters. Well, I'd rather not assume to much for what it makes of myself.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:16 am

    DoughGuy wrote:
    omega Elf wrote:
    Tolvo wrote:Fair fight? I thought winning wasn't about being fair?

    Within the context of a game, one in which your bounded by a set of
    rules, anything within those rules is fair.
    What about BS fishing and spears? They abuse lag to do things you shouldnt normaly be able to do. Are they fair?
    Ahem Omega, mind responding?


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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by Jansports on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:26 am

    I noted that not using the DWGR will make you better if and only if you are using two rings where neither of them effect your burden/poise such as Leo/FaP (A pair I personally use and am fond of)
    However there seems to be a sentiment that by not using the DWGR you can learn to be better in a general sense, which I disagree with. You can improve all aspect of your play with or without the ring excepting of course the noted situation where you make use of two specific rings in a build.
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    Re: Sick of the Dark Wood Grain Ring (DWGR)!!!

    Post by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:47 am

    Tolvo wrote:No it could be logical. Connection is a two way street, and in most cases both parties will feel the same delay. So I could argue for it being fair, I won't however after some of the issues I've seen. But there is a logic to such a claim, I just don't agree with the idea. But that's my personal opinion, which I don't take as fact. The thing about logic, is that being logical doesn't always lead to the right answer. Often it does, but not always. Understand that people who believe they have been kidnapped by aliens and were named their king, have a logic as to why they believe it is the truth. It's just flawed, and saying what is flawed and what isn't based off such subjective matters. Well, I'd rather not assume to much for what it makes of myself.

    Well, in that case, if a player, honestly believes, that lag is fair, then,
    to them at least, yes, they were better. Why? - because they won,
    and did so fairly, within the rules (set by the game).

    You win no points (are rewarded no souls), for playing more
    "skillfully". How would it prove, more beneficial, to purposefully,
    take unnecessary risks, for the sake of putting on a show
    (of skill); When, being secure in your abilities, you could instead,
    just take, the most effective, available option, however
    unskillful that may appear.


    Last edited by omega Elf on Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:04 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : trolling, my bad)

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