let's take a closer look at bows...

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    Rifter7
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    let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:16 pm

    hello. i'm terrible with introductions, so i'm just going
    to jump right into this

    i want to talk a little bit about the use of bows in pvp, and the amount of
    depth they can add to your tactics if you choose to incorporate them.

    i'm going to start with the basics and edge my way in here..
    but what are the basics? well..
    -they need to be held with both hands but can be put in either slot to do so.
    -starting the fire animation leaves your character immobile
    -can be locked on and fired, unlocked and fired which is fairly difficult and
    zoomed in with L1 and aimed to fire
    -shooting a player or most humanoid npcs in the head staggers them and does
    more damage


    -shooting a player holding a shield up anywhere in front
    of them will hit the shield
    -access to multiple types of damage dealing arrows, as well as ones that build
    basic poison. i'll go more into depth with this later as well.

    okay, that's pretty basic.. and that's what most pvper's seem to utilize when
    it comes to incorporating the bow into a duel. but... there's more to it than
    that. a lot actually.

    lets take a look at how a player getting shot at will react, because knowing
    this allows us to plan ahead and react.

    -when a player is getting shot at they will most likely
    a. roll/move to the side at the end of the fire animation
    b. defend themselves with their shield/weapon
    c. roll/run in and try to hit you
    d. roll/run in and try to backstab you
    e. cast a spell and try to punish your shot
    f. use a bow themselves and attempt to time their shots to be able to roll out
    of yours.

    obviously there's more, ie. you shooting them- preferably in the head, you're
    opponent running around aimlessly, spamming "well, what is it
    emotes?"- whatever etc. etc., i've just listed the common ones that'll
    lead to you getting harmed/punished while using the bow.

    well.. now that we've got a general idea of the opponents m.o. vs bows, we can
    further plan around this.

    a. free aim and aim ahead of their roll
    b. use poison arrows if they'll have effect
    c-e. time the shot and hope it hits them at the end of their roll.. right?
    well.. that's where things start to get tricky.
    f. deek them out and adjust your timing.. i'll get into this in a sec.

    now... the cool thing with the bow, is that unlike other weapons, like say the
    great scythe's R2, FR2 or run R1 you DON'T necessarily have to commit to the
    shot once you've begun the animation for the attack. BECAUSE OF THIS a punish
    to your attack can be used to YOUR ADVANTAGE. (yay caps)

    what are you talking about? well when you pull the arrow, the second the sound
    file kicks in (the *reeemp* noise of the arrow being drawn) you can either
    press triangle/y or swap out either your left or right weapon/shield and cancel
    the animation and swap immediately.

    the way you swap out the bow matters too, due to the animations your character
    does to pull out the new item. pressing triangle, while being the easiest
    method is also the slowest as the character takes his hands off the bow and
    readies the other item. swapping your left hand item while the bow is in your
    right is somewhere in the middle and swapping your the bow in your left hand to
    another item is the fastest. i haven't been able to time these but i did notice
    very slight differences in all of them, and they all have their strengths and
    weaknesses.

    okay so i can cancel the animation.. and then? this is where the fun comes in,
    and where designing exactly where each item goes in your item slots starts to
    matter when using the bow. but i'll leave that part up to you. however i will
    explain some uses with my preferred items.

    my items in the left slot are grass crest shield/fist/catalyst/talisman and
    pyromancy flame (i never leave home without my gcf/gc). in my right hand is
    either a rapier/uchi/cblade and my composite bow which has now entirely
    replaced my gscythe on every build.

    so.. right off the bat you should be able to tell that i prefer having two left
    handed items at all times, and because of that i'm using the medium (untested)
    switch speed for all of my bow switches. if we look at that thru my opponents
    eyes, they may also know that I DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO A MELEE WEAPON when i have
    my bow out. that should scream out at an attentive player the moment i switch..
    but... well, i think this stuff through as you can see.

    lets say that i'm shooting at my opponent and they run in at me with backstab
    written in their eyes. i pull the arrow back, *ree-* and suddenly my katana is
    in my hands and i have full control over the movement of my character. the
    enemy player, still running at me just now starts to realize what happened and
    before it's to late i've backpeddled to the left/right and swung around behind
    them to counterstab them.

    heres another example, lets say that my opponent is sitting just at the roll in
    range to hit me with a roll r1, and is baiting my shots with side rolls. they
    know that once the arrows stop flying towards their last known position that i
    have now since unlocked and am free aiming at them, leaving me vulnerable to
    being unlocked and disoriented to any kind of roll in attack. well.. since we know
    their m.o. right now, lets punish them.. right now.

    i break lock and draw the arrow back, but the opponent will never see that
    arrow either whiff or fly towards them.. instead, i ramp up an unlocked gcf and
    lob it towards the area they're rolling to. if it hits, excellent! i can now
    run in with a weapon or try for a gc as well. if it misses, the fact that i'm
    suddenly throwing fireballs at them is enough disorientation for the opponent
    that i can now switch my tactics and jump in to capitalize with any means that
    seems fit.

    Note this works with wotg and many other spells very
    well. With wotg if you punished them at the end of a roll or during a run you
    can even backstab them! (yay backstabs!)

    *in order to do this tactic, you must have your pyromancer flame in your left
    hand ready to be swapped in and your spell ready. The start of this would have
    my bow in the right slot and my grass crest shield in the left, with gcf in the
    spell slot.

    lets say that an opponent is very readable, and is constantly chasing you and
    trying to run/roll r1 you when you roll out to fire. you can swap out the bow
    with this tactic and then parry at the same time the bow would of been in the
    air. you can also turn around 180 degrees and parry behind you if they're going
    for a roll stab.

    that's just some of the stuff. you can incorporate great combustion, wrath of
    the gods to a backstab, a great chaos fireball at your feet... theres a lot you
    can do, and i'd suggest that you switch it up and utilize it all. if all you do
    is switch to a parry every time then you're going to get punished, so try to
    use it as a wild card.

    lets take a step back tho, lets say that you can live without an extra left
    slot item, and you've decided to put it there. theres a cool glitch in the game
    that works with resins. if you have a weapon that can be buffed in your right
    hand while you're holding the bow in the left slot, as well as holding the bow
    with both hands you can actually buff the bow. now if you have say a chaos
    composite bow, 99 humanity and fire arrows, and then you buff your weapon with
    a fire resin, all of that fire damage will stack, letting you punch holes thru
    an opponents fire defense. swapping the bow out in this case still works, but
    if you decide to swap out to your weapon you will have to use the slower
    triangle/y swap. on the plus side you'll keep your buff on your weapon tho. swapping
    back to the bow at any time removes this buff, tho, so be mindful of that

    this applies to all of the resins.

    Now.. yeah I know what a wall of words.. there’s MOAR

    I want to bring up the bows uses in terms of punishing
    players. Three things in particular, when an opponent casts a large aoe spell
    like fire tempest you can basically get a free headshot on them. When an
    opponent moves back to either heal or grass herb you can get a free shot on
    them, a headshot if you’re good at aiming, and the bow is generally great at
    punishing players that swap their weapons out through the start menu. Remember it
    if you see them doing these things.

    Also, remember that if an opponent is within roll in r1
    range, a lot of the times they’ll stand up to hit you and take an arrow to the
    chest before the attack can land. Learn to time this properly and you’ll win a
    lot of fights doing that.

    If you’re fighting another bow user and you’ve messed
    your timing up.. don’t worry, unlock that player and immediately pull back on
    the left analog stick. If you pull a 180 turn like that you’ll cancel the
    firing animation and can refire to time it properly.

    anyways, thanks for reading. i'm sorry if this got sloppy near the end i had
    some things come up and i lost my pacing. i really believe that the bow is a great weapon, and i hope that this can bring to light the uses of it to some players! hope this helped! happy
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:47 pm

    Just moving with the bow drawn will also cancel out the drawn back animation, so you don't have to change weapons, just press the stick in a direction.
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:57 pm

    i just tested this, when unlocked and firing the bow you can move in any direction, BUT it has to be for example left than right or else your character just pivots. if you don't hit back the arrow still shoots.

    when locked on theres no way to cancel it aside from swapping a weapon or hitting triangle at the right time.

    i could be misunderstood tho tolvo.. could you explain it a little bit more?


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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:04 pm

    Push a direction, let go as soon as you stop aiming, you barely move and no longer have to fire your bow. Any direction works for me, locked on or not.
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:38 pm

    oh you mean holding r1 down and moving.

    are you swapping to a shield for parry like that or what? just don't bother with the other stuff?


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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:41 pm

    Yep, I like to parry people quite often. It's like an addiction to me, it's the reason I hate the no parry zones. I don't care that I can't backstab, but they should still let me riposte. sad

    By the way, interesting guide. Also I didn't see if it was mentioned, but the thorn set goes great with using bows, as you can hammer them slightly with your rolls in between firing, allowing for you to be a bit more aggressive with your bow and possibly even stagger them.
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Swiftie on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:49 pm

    Bows are awesome. I use one on my dex build. Lightning Composite +4 with fire arrows. Hits 300+ on light armours and on heavy armor about 100-200. So its great


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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:49 pm

    i'd be in some kind of mental confusion if i had to move forward slightly let go of r1 either drop 2 hand or swap and then parry. lmao, nice, i guess everyone does it differently. is it faster your way?

    haven't considered thorns with the bow, i usually only put one piece on so i can ping shields. if u put enough pieces on does it bump the stagger power up or is it the same for 1 as it is for a set?
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:51 pm

    I believe it does, but I wouldn't take my word on it. Probably one piece is enough to do it with, but if using poison arrows and possibly dung pies for toxin, you can get some crazy build up of damage on your enemy with the full thorns set. And it's not to bad of a button combo, move, triangle, parry. Though I'll admit, just switching hands is faster.
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:53 pm

    i've been meaning to time all the different ways for the fastest, but i have no way of hitting start and stop with a bloody timer and doing this little combo..

    maybe ill hit the start and stop button with my big toe or something lmao.


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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:55 pm

    I also hold my controler in a really weird way, for instance I can press triange, and attack, while running, using three separate fingers for the whole thing. I use my palm to operate the right stick for instance.
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:02 am

    i've just got massive hands. from my wrist to my middle finger is like 8 inches.

    lol i can just push every button with my thumbs while i control the analog stick, YEAH HAMFIST CONTROLS FTW.


    Last edited by Rifter7 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:03 am

    Maybe I should just wrap my thumb in tape the next time I play haha.
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:07 am

    lol. might help man.. idk at games i'm good at i can beat my cousins and friends with one hand on the (xbox) controller and the other holding up a middle finger when they complain about stuff.

    the ps3 one is to small for my pinky and pointer finger knuckle to push the analog stick with.. and my fingers can barley reach over and reach the triggers. sad


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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Gaxe on Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:22 am

    I think you should goto the doctor 5 feet hands aren't healthy sir happy lol
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:29 am

    hahah i'd be concerned if i was shorter than i am.

    besides, what kind of treatment is a doctor going to prescribe to that? a butcher knife? maybe a pencil sharpener lol.


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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:33 am

    Think breast reduction surgery, but for your meaty hands. The extra meat will be pumped into the breasts of some plastic looking woman elsewhere.
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:46 am

    "wtf is that? a nipple..?"

    spoiler alert: it's my finger.


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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:51 am

    "Who has two nipples made out of thumbs?"

    Two little lumps pop up under her chest.

    "This girl!"

    I think I'm going to go vomit now.
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    Re: let's take a closer look at bows...

    Post by Rifter7 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:17 am

    haha if this thread derails anymore it might just get back on topic.

    i'm going to go see if i cant find the firing speeds of all the bows.. i know composite, darkmoon and black bow of pharis are some of the best for that.

    also, i'd like to ask the community if they have any reliable tactics for crossbows, a lightning avelyn in particular.


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