Fixing the DWGR

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    Baiulus
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    Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Baiulus on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:31 am

    It seems that popular opinion on 'fixing' the ring that lets the morbidly obese flip around like acrobats is lowering the percentage of weight you can have from 50%; but I think that would lower its usefulness as well.
    While it is true that those in 42354362 LB. armor should not be able to move like that, making the ring's effect requirements would make is useful to only the lightest of armor sets; and that is why I propose in alternate idea.

    Instead of slapping on a sign that says, "You can only be this fat to flip." to the ring, why couldn't they just make it to where those wearing heavier sets of armor, and maybe some weapons, aren't able to utilize the ring. Implementing that would eliminate the possibility of running into those players with Havel, Golem, Smough, Black Iron, Stone, and any other ridiculously defensive/poise riddled armors running at top speed like they wore nothing at all, while still allowing those with light-medium armor sets to use its effects.

    It may just be that I still want my Silly Bugger build to be able to flip into people in his Armor of Thorns, but I feel this is a much more acceptable solution. The idea would eliminate most reasonable complaints about the ring, and force people to choose between superior defense and poise, or superior movement. I, of course, don't really think that they are planning on implementing any changes to the ring in the near future; I just figured it would be something decent to have your all's thought on.



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    ICEFANG
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by ICEFANG on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:44 am

    I wrote this in the other DWGR thread I posted in, I also said how I would fix it.

    "Actually I'm gonna 180 my own opinion and tell you this:

    I used
    to think the ring is OP, it still is too good, but really, I have
    learned that medium rolling, is just fine for killing people. It is
    logical to use it, if you wanted poise, instead of the wolf ring, add
    armor and do flips, if you wanted hp/defense, instead RoFaP and Steel
    protecty ring whatever, add armor and do flips. Need more equip load?
    Instead of Havel's Ring, make some adjustments and fast roll rather than
    medium. Armor is really good, and it is logical to do the flips. I have
    to agree that the flipping is better than fast roll, and if it was up
    to me, I would remove it, just because of what it does to PvP. (YAWN)

    The
    ring is great, you should logically use it, but don't be turned off by
    medium movement, it really isn't bad at all, it works just fine.

    Never
    fat roll, unless you like dying.

    I do have one more thing to say
    though, I believe I have noticed (on my fat build) that my stamina
    recovers slower, now that build is using the Giants Set (and Dragon GS,
    and Havel's GS), I know the armor reduces stamina recovery, but I
    suspect that your roll speed also affects how fast it regenerates. If
    this is true, and I don't know that it is, it is loads more logical to
    use the DWGR over the Cloranty Ring (however that's spelled, actually I
    freaking look it up now) ah Cloranthy Ring. Yes, although I don't think
    the bonus (which may exist or I may be imagining it) would be greater,
    the fast movement and fast flips are more than enough to offset it.

    It
    is logical to use it, but what is my personal opinion on it? I have no
    mental block to beat them with it, I just ignore it, but it does bring
    up feelings of regret that they will never enjoy playing a harder or
    more complex build. (I suppose that isn't really fair to say, but I hope
    you understand, I feel disappointed)."

    I'm a big fan of removing it, because, if anything, it makes PvE even easier, heck they did it with Iron Flesh right?


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by retro on Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:02 am

    Baiulus wrote:It seems that popular opinion on 'fixing' the ring that lets the morbidly obese flip around like acrobats is lowering the percentage of weight you can have from 50%; but I think that would lower its usefulness as well.
    While it is true that those in 42354362 LB. armor should not be able to move like that, making the ring's effect requirements would make is useful to only the lightest of armor sets; and that is why I propose in alternate idea.
    To me, it makes sense that only the lightest builds should be able to flip around like that. It really doesn't make sense to see even medium-weight builds flipping around. However, I had an idea that could still make it somewhat useful for heavier builds. Instead of making the ring be limited to a certain weight requirement, change its main function to increasing the player's roll speed (where it just so happens that fast rolls turn into flips).

    fast roll turns into ninja flip,
    medium roll turns into fast roll,
    slow roll turns into medium, etc

    I realize the roll speeds are a bit more nuanced than that (there are three different "fast" rolls, correct?), but the basic idea could still work. The item description says "Agents of subterfuge in this faraway land are particularly fond of the dark gold wood grain, which greatly alters its wearer's rolling action.", so even a fundamental change like this wouldn't contradict that.

    Even as nerfed as that may seem to some, it'd still be a completely awesome item. Lots of people, when they hit a heavier weight class, care most about having their roll speed crippled. Walking or running slower is usually the lesser-problem. The DWGR would allow players to pack on some heavier armor and not miss the roll speed they previously enjoyed.
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by bloodpixel on Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:10 am

    Obliterate it. Problem solved.


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Federally on Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:44 am

    It has no place in the game IMO. Everything about the way the game's combat works is so finely tuned, then that junk is thrown in and it just doesn't fit. It is immersion shattering and just looking at the flipping makes me think "This doesn't fit with Dark Souls' reality", but then again that's just me Shrug


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Juutas on Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:42 am

    I think it would make perfect sense to fix a ring so that you can get the ninja flip only under 25%-30% of the equipload. Actually I think the ring was originally meant to be that way but it's just broken, because it makes zero sense that it makes Havel's ring and Wolf ring etc. completely useless. Light armor guys would have SOMETHING in their advantage (right now there is actually no benefits in using light armor) if the ring would be fixed.
    We would see lot less full giant or full havel + family mask and lot more originality and variety on armor choices.

    Fixing the ring would have really good impact on PvP.


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Federally on Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:54 am

    Yeah the extended I frames of the ninja flip would actually be very helpful to a light armor wearer and be a real benefit worth the ring slot, even if it didnt drastically increase equip burden the way it does now.


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Eolan on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:17 am

    It just shouldnt help with equipment burden AT ALL, it makes havels ring obsolete for a start...
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:41 am

    Two corrections:
    1. They're handsprings not flips and I know at least one human being that could do handsprings in any but Havel's armor assuming the armor allowed for correct range of motion
    2. We're calling it the Bieber ring now


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:45 am

    skarekrow13 wrote:Two corrections:
    1. They're handsprings not flips and I know at least one human being that could do handsprings in any but Havel's armor assuming the armor allowed for correct range of motion
    2. We're calling it the Bieber ring now

    I disagree. The description on Black Iron armour makes it clear tarkus was abnormally strong. Anything as heavy/heavier than BI would be impossible to flip in. A few lighter things may be too impossible to.
    (Flip is easier to say than handspring)


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:39 am

    The person I'm thinking of was abnormally strong and agile to boot. Since it's a game based on surpassing demigods and god remnants though I won't argue too much about that point.

    Bieber ring is much easier than ninja flip ring. Plus, while you do get it from Shiva's bodyguard there's no definitive evidence he uses ninjitsu and therefore he might be offended that you failed to recognize his martial arts style by assuming he's a ninja. Plus ninjitsu, like many Japanese arts is more science based than aesthetic based for a martial art, so flipping is not a combat technique that accurately represents the style. Inaccuracies all over the place I says!

    cheers

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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by xtal84 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:39 am

    The simplest re-balancing of the ring would involve changing the weight requirement from <50% to <25%.

    Entire problem solved. Only people who are actually "ninja light" can do ninja flips. It turns from what is perceived (and largely agreed upon) as an overpowered cheese item to a niche ring mostly for role-players.
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by ICEFANG on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:00 pm

    Eolan wrote:It just shouldnt help with equipment burden AT ALL, it makes havels ring obsolete for a start...

    This isn't quite true, while it usually ends up that way, Havel's Ring has a bigger impact if you are trying to remain under half, or much greater if you are trying to remain under full.

    If you have 80EL, the DWGR gives you 40EL to flip.
    If you have 80EL, Havel's Ring gives you 30EL to fast roll (which is less), 60 to medium roll, and 120 to fat roll.
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Federally on Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:59 pm

    xtal84 wrote:The simplest re-balancing of the ring would involve changing the weight requirement from <50% to <25%.

    Entire problem solved. Only people who are actually "ninja light" can do ninja flips. It turns from what is perceived (and largely agreed upon) as an overpowered cheese item to a niche ring mostly for role-players.

    Untrue, the handspring (happy Skare?) Is faster, covers more distance and has more invulnerability frames. So it would be worth the sacrifice of a ring slot for a light armor wearer to equip it. It would really still be useful and have a place not be just a cosplay item.


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:04 pm

    Yes. Yes I am

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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by xtal84 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:42 pm

    Federally wrote:
    xtal84 wrote:The simplest re-balancing of the ring would involve changing the weight requirement from <50% to <25%.

    Entire problem solved. Only people who are actually "ninja light" can do ninja flips. It turns from what is perceived (and largely agreed upon) as an overpowered cheese item to a niche ring mostly for role-players.

    Untrue, the handspring (happy Skare?) Is faster, covers more distance and has more invulnerability frames. So it would be worth the sacrifice of a ring slot for a light armor wearer to equip it. It would really still be useful and have a place not be just a cosplay item.

    The point is you wouldn't be able to have 60 units of weight and ninja flip. You could have 30 at most with DWGR + Havel's. It would be abused less often.
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:51 pm

    The equip being lowered would really change nothing, people would just go to 50end and use the havels gauntlets+leggings. Yea that might be a slight improvement, but not a big enough change for it to be worth doing. Its the i-frames that are the problem. I would say make the ring either not allow any additional equip weight, or make the i-frames the same as fast roll. I still feel like you should not be able to have poise while using it, that seems like the best fix to me. If you cant have poise you literally wouldnt need to change anything, cause the added equip weight really wouldnt matter at that point. Plus it would actually make it so its not useless: Amazing i-frames,can carry any weapons you want, and dont need nearly as much end.
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Eolan on Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:40 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:The equip being lowered would really change nothing, people would just go to 50end and use the havels gauntlets+leggings. Yea that might be a slight improvement, but not a big enough change for it to be worth doing. Its the i-frames that are the problem. I would say make the ring either not allow any additional equip weight, or make the i-frames the same as fast roll. I still feel like you should not be able to have poise while using it, that seems like the best fix to me. If you cant have poise you literally wouldnt need to change anything, cause the added equip weight really wouldnt matter at that point. Plus it would actually make it so its not useless: Amazing i-frames,can carry any weapons you want, and dont need nearly as much end.


    In a sense of "aesthetic logic" the no poise thing is the obvious solution. It really *** up the look of heavy armor and the differences between the sets if they are "handspringing" at you instead of walking slow and ominous...
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:45 pm

    Honestly i think people would really start to see how powerful the additional i-frames are if they could not have poise. In my opinion the ring would still be VERY viable. I really think a lot of people don't realize just how much harder it is to dodge without flips.

    I did a test on my own seeing the difference between the i-frames of each roll type, i suggest others see for themselves. Find a straight path of lava, and put orange soap signs straight across from each other. The ninja flip takes A LOT less dmg. Thats why it can seem like you're are hitting your opponent but they dont take any dmg. It's also why its so easy for people to just roll through your attack and backstab you.
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Ghadis_God on Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:37 pm

    If the ring was weaker it would be fine. But the flip is better by a significant margin than fast roll, so people who use it win in defense and mobility.


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:02 pm

    I'm against any change. As i've both seen and demonstrated, both the light and medium rolls can be used effectively to dodge most everything, it simply requires somewhat better timing. As such the beiber ring is merely a substitute for slightly lighter armor and the wolfs ring, enabling essentially the same poise stacked fast rolling, but the loss of equip burden would make heavy weapons (weapons above 8 lbs or so) even less viable on the whole by removing any option for a secondary weapon and by requireing end gouging to even hold the thing and maintain the fast roll. And believe you me, with most of the ug weapons, the fast roll is essential because the swing recovery time is so long, so the irritatingly frequent misses are easily punished and make high mobility a priority.


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by passivefamiliar on Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:51 pm

    An idea i just had. Make it so anyone using dwgr does 50% less backstab damage UNLESS they are using light armor pieces only. Wouldnt fic things. But...save getting rid of the ring alltogether i dont think anything will really fix it. I wouldnt miss that ring. Its as OP as the crystal ring shield attack was. It needs ficed. Patch with dlc is possible
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:06 pm

    ? Why? the people who are even half decent at backstabing are going to do it with or without the beiber ring and most backstabs are easy to stop anyways


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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by ublug on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:30 pm

    The problem is that the ring kind of works as intended for PvE (where fast rolling is not as important), by sacrificing a ring slot.

    What a bout this:
    Below 25% equip = As it is today.
    Between 25% and 50% = You get dizzy after a few rolls, which makes you stunlocked for a moment while recuperating. 👽
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    Re: Fixing the DWGR

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:41 pm

    I would just say higher stamina drain based on weight.


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