Which is Life?

So, I was talking with Dough about the idea of how the undead curse came about and I mentioned an idea of mine that I've held for a while. He thought it was a bit interesting, and come to think of it I've never seen another mention it. So, I decided I might open a discussion about it, as who knows maybe it could lead us in a better direction you know?

Now, what always was interesting to me was the concept of how the first flame was found, the Kiln. It is the kiln I assume, based off its name. Maybe it was moved, maybe it was born of the first fire. Either case, a flame was found by what would become humans, and the gods. Now then, because of the entrance to the kiln I've always viewed it as a sort of afterlife. When an undead dies they are brought to the last bonfire they rested at. Now, I always thought of it like an afterlife for the first flame. When a person died they were drawn to it as their afterlife. The hollows in the begining remind me a great deal of the souls of the dead from Greek mythology in particular, as well as other ancient sources. Now then, say there were a great deal of beings that were killed. Well eventually I figured some or at least one decided they wished to return to the living world. They discovered a way out, possibly with the aid of the Lord Souls(Whatever they actually are) and returned from death as gods. It isn't all that far fetched truthfully, as the undead are completely treated as unnatural. It reminds me a great deal of prometheus, stealing fire from the gods. Though who created said fire, or what did is beyond me. Perhaps as an afterlife it always existed before it was perverted by the Lords. Perhaps the original lord's killed themselves in creating it, that point is really too far out there to have anything stick. In either case to me it always made me believe that they stole the flame away from this world bringing it into their own. Duplicating it to create the bonfires. It might explain why there is such a great deal of difference in races. The gods, giants, humans, even the pygmy if it is human or isn't. Perhaps it was the first of a new line, or just one of many to come. Either humanoids growing taller over time, or shrinking. I think the shrinking route fits more with the giants being of old ways, as well as the taller beings and gods. The humans being the newer ones, thus further down the line. It might explain a few things to keep this in mind.

So, crazy, or just the right amount of crazy?

thats an interesting theory, i believe it has something to do with the firstborn (i have many theory's on the firstborn haha) the reason is that the firstborn did an act so horrible that he was punished to be mortal. nothing about this act is recorded.... while i dont think THEY caused the mark id be surprised if the firstborn had nothing to do with it.

I think I see what you're going for, but if they tried to duplicate the first flame wouldn't they just get another Bed of Chaos? I understand the Witch tried to create it using a regular soul, but aren't bonfires powered by humanity? If you have noticed you can get humanity from hollows, rats, and other people. All these things have souls..so since the Witch tried to duplicate the first flame with a soul then bonfires would just be Beds of Chaos.

Though there was a bonfire after you defeated the Bed of Chaos....

Meh, too much crazy in my opinion.

Gods seem to just be another race, along with giants.

Because the gods aren't anything really profound, they are still mortal, just have a large amount of power. But even that power can be held by an undead human. They just seem to be beings that are effected by the flames differently. Further, they can breed and have children.

Buggy Virus wrote:Meh, too much crazy in my opinion.

Gods seem to just be another race, along with giants.

Because the gods aren't anything really profound, they are still mortal, just have a large amount of power. But even that power can be held by an undead human. They just seem to be beings that are effected by the flames differently. Further, they can breed and have children.

But thats what Tolvo is saying. The only difference between the gods and humans are when they died and the lord souls.

I'm still saying that nothing "created" the flame. If it literally created light and darkness, and life and death, and heat and cold, then what could have come before it?

Nothing alive. Nothing bright. No molecules to vibrate. If there was no heat, then there can't be any matter, Unless you want to try to argue that everything was at a single, constant temperature.

EDIT: Actually, that's a very interesting idea. Sadly, I don't think the game is based on Earth after the heat death of the universe, and that dragons are just the main lifeform that managed to survive. It would explain the English letters on the book in the Archives...

I also mentioned the concept of stealing it. If you notice the fire in the opening cinematic is massive, in fact it appears like a great deal of it is off screen so we actually don't know how large it is. Based off its appearance, it looks way larger than the kiln. So it is possible they took a part of it.

And no Lordran is not based on Earth, or at least not on our Earth. It is a completely different world.

Tolvo wrote:I also mentioned the concept of stealing it. If you notice the fire in the opening cinematic is massive, in fact it appears like a great deal of it is off screen so we actually don't know how large it is. Based off its appearance, it looks way larger than the kiln. So it is possible they took a part of it.

And no Lordran is not based on Earth, or at least not on our Earth. It is a completely different world.

It was just a joke. I realize that.

People need to stop saying that as a joke, I never realize they're joking.

Tolvo wrote:People need to stop saying that as a joke, I never realize they're joking.

If I come up with some "ground-breaking" idea for the lore and only post a paragraph or less about it, it's a joke.

Like how Doughguy hates me because I keep saying things like this: "God of War is OBVIOUSLY Alvina."

See that one is an obvious joke to me, but I know people do believe Lordran is actually in our world, so it always bothers me.

Getting back on topic, I really don't see how there could have been anything BEFORE the flame. That doesn't mean that the world started with the humans coming from the flame, but I could easily see them finding it somehow.

I wasn't saying there was anything before the flame, I mention the possibility but it is unknowable at that point. Instead the idea is that the flame was some aspect of the afterlife, and that in death it was discovered by the souls that were sent there. Gods, man, giants, I don't know what. It also makes the concept of Nito a bit interesting as Dough discussed with me on Skype. First of the dead, meaning perhaps his body was made of the first person to ever die, or made of the bodies of the first to die, or merely it is just a comment on his race. Since he is not undead or living, but literally walking dead. Similar to his skeletons.

A way to think of it is like this as the underworld in greek mythology, except instead of a pool of souls, there is this abyss with a flame at the center where people are sent to. In that culture they believed in heroes who had traveled to and back from such a place, so why wouldn't it be possible here?

Maybe that is what happens. After all we are some kind of hero, and who says upon death we do not visit that flame only to be rerouted to the last bonfire we rested at? Maybe that is why it is so important to link the fires? Lest all those who die just end up in that abyss and it becomes the underworld with no exit?

That wasn't exactly the idea I was going with, but yeah I can see that as another possibility. It would make sense as to why people wish to keep the bonfires so much, as well it could explain the difference in beliefs very well. Why people don't wish to be undead, especially clerics. It isn't as simple as hollows being weird, or ugly. It could go against their entire religion, if they believe in the original flame and after life. These are creatures that have possibly perverted and corrupted their god, afterlife, or whatever their believe is. Hell it is mentioned there is a flame lord. Maybe that was the original fire, that Gwynevere left to become its keeper. Or it is a god that watches over the original flame. This kind of opens more possibilities, and frankly I've got to say this is probably the most interesting part of the lore to me at the moment. This part right here reminds me a lot of more real religions. Instead of focusing on these powerful idols, a real idea surrounded by mysticism and hope, fear, its very interesting I feel. The issue just comes in how little is mentioned in game about it.

Well i think of this like that... at the begining there were dragons the serpents and a humanoid, hollow...
the hollows had no meaning or purpose but then the flame was born and with it the power to change, life, death and other things. However, each soul (dark soul, nito's soul, gwins and witches) was different the dark soul made humans a weaker race that was easy to control, nito's soul gave 'life' to the dead, gwin's created a race of gaint's that were seen as god's only seen as god's and the witches soul gave birth to different type of humans...

As for the human hollows, humans were born from the dark soul and have humanity a part of the soul... the human hollows have a ring burned into their skin so i think the ring is a part of gwin's soul that eats away the humanity of the host thats why if a hollows consumes humanity he/she can take a human form.