DkS without PvP "techniques"

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    DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:18 am

    What would happen if fromsoftware patch stunlock toggle escape, roll backstab, spell cancel, cancel backstab, etc.? In my opinion I would like that these "techniques" could get patched. I sometimes feel players abuse these techniques way too much. I don't think the developers put these techniques intentionally in the game. I mean, if all of these things get patched, greatswords would be the main PvP weapon lol. I guess they would patch their infinite stunlock glitch to let's say, 2 stunlock hits. I would be so happy if roll backstab is patched, I could use my favorite Str builds in the Burg without fear. Spell cancel patch would actually resolve the dragon glitch, it's done in a similar crazy manner (I think). I really don't use much of these gimmicky techniques in PvP, except the toggle escape and counter backstab. I think I would adapt very quickly to these changes, my fighting style wouldn't change much. What about you?


    Last edited by WyrmHero on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:41 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:27 am

    i bs cancel people alot... that may be because i've been fighting fishers but...


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:51 am

    BS fishers would be more annoying, slow weapons would be harder to use because of BS fishers, as well fighting gankers would become much more difficult. Not to mention if you got staggered by a Greatsword, you would die.
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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:00 am

    Some greatswords are glitched, they are the only weapons you can't escape from stunlock after 3 hits (MSGS lets you escape, tested). I guess they would patch that too (I don't think it was intentional for you to be stunlocked forever). For BS fishers you'll have to use the simple counter backstab but in this case you actually do the damage to him, or he to you (whoever make the first hit), not the no damage non sense backstab animation. To me it feels glitchy.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:06 am

    I saw you in the Burg the otherday Wyrm


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by ROOSTER330 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:11 am

    I med roll with a ultra greatsword on most of my builds, and dont use any of the techniques you just listed....so it wouldnt affect me a whole lot. Being that im pretty much a tank waiting for a shot to get in a couple good hits or stunlocking ftw, only the stunlock change would affect me..still wouldnt change my playstyle though.

    That said they need to patch some things, your right in saying these techniques were not intentionally put into the game, most of them are more closely related to a glitch than to a technique. In my opinion anyway.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:26 am

    ViralEnsign_ wrote:I saw you in the Burg the otherday Wyrm

    Maybe you saw me dying lol. I haven't played DkS since Wednesday though...

    @Rooster- Yes.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by DamageCK on Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:37 am

    I'd be pretty bummed about the no toggle escape. Greatswords everywhere.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by DamageCK on Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:39 am

    Plus, gankers would rule this game.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:47 am

    Well DeS has toggle escape too. In a game where you could stunlock for infinity with dual kats (push lock) and 0 poise the toggle escape was the only way to escape a push-lock. It just seems impossible to patch because DkS has it from day 1, or they leave it intentionally.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by Jansports on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:03 am

    WyrmHero wrote:Well DeS has toggle escape too. In a game where you could stunlock for infinity with dual kats (push lock) and 0 poise the toggle escape was the only way to escape a push-lock. It just seems impossible to patch because DkS has it from day 1, or they leave it intentionally.

    *Ahem* I competitively play Smash Brothers and from the original game there was an unintended feature known as L-canceling, the left it in intentionally when they made Melee for the game cube. While at first it wasn't part of the game it became part of the game because that's how people played.

    People Toggl,e BS "phantoms" as I began to call them (again related to smash a hit connecting but doing to stun is known as a phantom hit in the community) It's no longer suprising then these things happen.

    I'm not certain how I feeel about it though. Toggles, Dead Angles namely seem problematic because it's not that You are actively doing something, it is more that you are preventing your opponent from playing the game how it was designed. This is personal opinion but whenever I dead angle joe BKshield 438 I don't have the same nice feeling I get when I just land unlocked GSFBs. Because really I didn't do anything special, I swung my Great Scythe obtusely and it became unblockable through science (or magic) Where unlocked lead fireballs, well that was all my prediction and aim paying off.

    In the end nearly every game that's at some point been competitive players have done things developers did not consider or test or even know was possible, Some things are outright unacceptable and it's fairly obvious (For those Familiar Gambit glitching in MvC2 is one such thing as the game literally cannot be played anymore, whomever has the most health left will eventually win at time out) Others it's more of a question of "How much affect does this bear onto gameplay"

    I should restate that because it's important. How much Affectation of gameplay does this bring into how people play the game. Overall I feel most things encourage safer and safer play at higher levels. Toggles Roll BS Phantom hits Dead Angles. Almost completely focus on your position relative to your opponent(and I currently am unaware of how to properly spell swap but I assume from the statement earlier it's done involving your facing, lock on and actually swapping the spells, similar to the dragon head glitch) Where Toggles prevent stunlocks and punish overly eager hack 'n' slash fests typically with a follwing parry or simply a spacing roll.

    Fundamentally I enjoy that positioning is key to utilize many of these unintended techniques as it rewards players with sharp awareness in the midst of battle, I also appreciate that most of these techniques have an answer, none of them are so overwhelming it's just impossible to beat someone using them. Even if someone did Toggle every first hit, canceled every BS, If you gave up BSing and started predicting parry/roll after the first hit you could feasibly beat him.

    One small caveat I have with toggling is that it does take away one of the intended downsides to light armor, in that your poise stat becomes irrelevant, cheapening the decision to be either lightweight OR not take hits like a little girl, however there is already something with similar functionality in game as an item (I think we all know I mean the DWGR) Which is acceptable many places, though some choose to forgo it, I would imagine those groups would similarly frown on toggle escapes because it serves the same "Stat workaround" where you can glean the benefits but not the downsides to a particular armor class.
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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:03 am

    I want the best of both worlds. I agree with Wyrm that these "techniques" aren't really techniques at all and they do drain some of the quality out of the combat.

    However, without this recourse the BS fishers would be all the more difficult and whatnot...

    What I'd really like is for underhanded fighters to be patched. A free lobotomy given out to all gankers sounds like the ticket. winking

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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:08 pm

    I dont see how they are not viable tactics. Its a lot harder to pull off then some of you are implying. Its not like you just push a single button and magically roll bs someone, and timing toggle escapes isnt the easiest thing in the world. I personally think roll bs's are as bad as they are, because of the dwgr's i-frames.

    If you werent able to have poise with the dwgr, then it would be a very viable ring for people who dont toggle escape and have 0 poise. Only thing is you can have those i-frames and stack poise, which i see as a much bigger problem then toggle escapes. I'm actually really surprised people have been looking at toggle escapes in a negative light lately, oh well.
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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:17 pm

    The i frames should be patched too. I beginning to think you get more i frames because of the strange minimal PvP lag (just as you have to get used to the parry timing of PvP vs the one of PvE). Not entirely sure but it could be.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by DamageCK on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:26 pm

    Jans, you make some pretty solid points. And I guess I largely agree. Dead angles are totally legit though. It's just sort of a manipulation of the "you're not blocking at the correct angle" game mechanic by the player who isn't blocking. But the mechanic itself is built into the game, that you need to be facing an attack to block it properly. It's actually a very clever technique.

    The argument about toggle escapes... yeah I get it. I get the argument of how it's comparable to the DWGR. Big difference there is i-frames. Plus, natural poise beats having to successfully toggle every first hit without question. But what I really want to say is this is just sort of where the game is right now. These things are possible and people play this way. The game allows certain things, intentional or not, and people continually adapt their playstyle. Personally, at times I think a more rigid gameplay structure would make it less exciting, but then i'd also see less "bullsh*t". Point is, this is just where DkS PvP is at the moment. These types of advanced techniques are typically employed by players who have dedicated a fair amount of time to the game and are essentially driving the direction of PvP, and this is where it's gone so far. I don't know. For good or bad, I'd rather have more tricks than fewer.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by Gaxe on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:44 pm

    In my opinion here's the things that need to be patched.


    • Chain BS
    • Roll BS
    • Perm Stunlock
    • They need to make Spell Canceling easier to do.
    • They need to make BS do less damage so BS fishers wouldn't be tempted to BS 24/7
    • The whole switching items menu (D-Pad) This is what causes spell swapping and Dragon Glitch
    • DWGR <- 30% instead of <- 50%
    • Increase Ultra GS damage a tad
    • Dead Angles
    • Lower damage of BKGA
    • Fix range of WotG
    • Cap Divine Blessings at 10
    • Will edit when I can think of more
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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:55 pm

    The items on the D pad are nice. They just need to patch the whole damn game.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:06 pm

    Gaxe, the added equip weight is not what makes the dwgr broken. Its the i-frames. Although im not one t talk cause i constantly talk about what i think should be patched, i think people go a little to far with their ideas. Besides the obvious glitches like dragon bow and spell swap ext i dont think anything besides the dwgr and backstab dmg should be patched.

    Its going to be so hard not to spoil the dlc, cause im going to be SO TEMPTED to see what they change.
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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by Jansports on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:20 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:I dont see how they are not viable tactics. Its a lot harder to pull off then some of you are implying. Its not like you just push a single button and magically roll bs someone, and timing toggle escapes isnt the easiest thing in the world. I personally think roll bs's are as bad as they are, because of the dwgr's i-frames.

    If you werent able to have poise with the dwgr, then it would be a very viable ring for people who dont toggle escape and have 0 poise. Only thing is you can have those i-frames and stack poise, which i see as a much bigger problem then toggle escapes. I'm actually really surprised people have been looking at toggle escapes in a negative light lately, oh well.

    Where do you draw the line between toggle escapes having similar function to the DWGR with a heavier execution requirment and say Dragon Head firebombing? Now I can't imagine many people have Tried in earnest to Dragon head glitch in a duel, but I imagine it takes some level of skill past simply wearing the head. I bet it'd be right effective and winning to boot.

    Neither seems to have been intended by design, at least I haven't found any messages or anything in my instruction book that says "switch you weapon to cancel all that hit stun when a UGS hits you"

    If we are willing to accept This particular 'unintended feature' because it's become a part of the scene at high level, would we be willing to accept mass fire bombings if it were to emerge in serious skilled duels?

    What about spell swapping? Being able to cast spells I don't meet the requirments for sounds like it'd probably be helpfull, Particularly if I'm CMW buffing with the easy to obtain 230 adjust from Pyro+5. I mean sure I don't have the stats to cast CMW normally, but then again plenty of people do things they don't have the stats for... like not getting stunned for X amount of time when they get hit with heavy weapons.

    Seriously think about it. Toggle escapes are really really dangerous territory, as they allow characters to gain benefits intended to be obtained through other means (namely poise) And if we decide thats A-Okay because it has an execution req, then the next stop actually is me buffing CMW with my 230 pryo glove on a base int 40/40 Melee build. Throwing Wraths while I'm at it. ALL I would be doing is gaining the benefit of in game stats I do not posses through my execution.


    Specifically it is not that I frown upon toggles, I find them somewhat charming as most games I've played have had some unintentionally snafu that players used and used until it was simply part of the skillset required to seriously play. But the *Idea* is what worries me and it seems nothing logically separates the functionality of toggle escapes and spell swaps. In their most simple terms each one offers the benefit of a stat on your character page without having to invest towards that stat. And I seriously would rather not see spellswap buffs every fight I try to find because "It's become a part of the game"

    I think instinctively most people recognize there is a gap in the benefit between Toggle Dead angle ect. and spell swap but it's not a very clear line it's simply a feeling we have that "No you cannot cast that, don't be ridiculous" but then why aren't we saying "hey that UGS should've stunlocked you, could you please be manner and run off a cliff?"
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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by DamageCK on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:07 pm

    I think the biggest distinction is that toggling isn't an offensive maneuver. I don't do any extra damage because of it, or any damage at all for that matter. I just don't continue to stagger everytime you fart in my general direction.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:31 pm

    Toggling does not give the same benefit as poise though. If you are mid attack on an opponent and take damage, you will still hit them with poise. Without, your attack is cancelled. Sure you can toggle out then try to attack again, but it still does not allow you to deal the damage since you were interrupted. The advantage of poise is still that you don't get interrupted in what you are doing.
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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by DamageCK on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:45 pm

    ^And that.


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:34 pm

    ^ As they said, it doesn't really eliminate the need for poise. It's extremely difficult to toggle out of a katana swing and then parry them, while if you had poise you just tank the hit then parry. Same with getting hit while going for a lock/pivot bs, with poise you can tank a hit and keep going uninterrupted. I do get the point you're making though, and i somewhat agree. It's just comparing it to the spell swap glitch is an exaggeration, cause as damage mentioned that glitch makes you output tons of dmg( i consider that to be a lot different then a glitch that has no offensive use).

    Plus, if anyones going to complain about dead angles and toggles ext. you can not ignore bb glitch. Another reoccuring glitch in the series, which i feel is intentional. I think your example of smash bros melee adopting the glitch from previous games and implementing it into the next game might be what fromsoft ends up doing with these very popular glitches(toggle escape,dead angles,bb glitch). Personally im just going to play however i want at this point, i was getting a bunch of **** from flipping mom tanks for using hornets ring when they are using a buffed katana with 40dex(which can output the same amount of dmg in a few swings, w/o the need to score a critical hit)
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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:14 pm

    I've always hated PvP techniques because the vast majority of them are just an extension and dressed up version of lag exploit, same reason why I don't like BS in PvP generally.

    Also imbalance of certain equipment, but it's impossible to create perfect balance without ruining our ability to choose in the game, the "ability to damn ourselves if necessary"


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    Re: DkS without PvP "techniques"

    Post by DamageCK on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:25 pm

    @Fruit. I've got no sympathy for Giant/MoM builds anymore. Just don't care.


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