Future of PvP

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    Sephiroth0011

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    Future of PvP

    Post by Sephiroth0011 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:42 pm

    I'm fairly new to Dark Souls and try and avoid PvP at any cost simply because the people that invade are complete douches. They generally have way better equipment and just invade in places where they are going to get an easy win. This has resulted in me being hollow for the most of the game.

    Currently there are no disadvantages to invading someone. Yeah, if you kill an invader they have to go an rescue a bloodstain but generally this is only ever a minor inconvenience. Whereas if you die then you lose your humanity. There should be a penalty for being a losing invader e.g. it costs a set number of humanity to invade and you lose all of it if you fail or maybe the host getting all your souls.

    I actually think in future souls games it should go even further. Remove invading altogether (except Darkmoon invasions). Instead implement a co-op system where you can be summoned, help the host kill the boss and then give the summoned two options at the end of the fight. You can either split the souls with the host or duel them for all the souls (the host would still get the items). Then Darkmoonies could invade the guilty and for various rewards. I feel this system fits in better with Dark Souls than the current one which is more reminiscent of bullying.

    I'd be interested to know what you guys think of this!
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    Rynn
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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Rynn on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:43 pm

    Invasions are flawed due to exploited mechanics. The mechanics need work, not the idea of invasions.
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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Kratos1810 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:56 pm

    I'm with you on PvP being one sided. I was invaded 6 straight times one after the other by the same person. It brought me to the point of sheer rage seeing how he kept invading. I even messaged him politely to stop, and he invaded yet again! I like the option of being able to invade, I just do not appreciate them having an edge. I believe if in every area had a set soul level, where iff you invaded your stats would level down to that of the area maximum, along with aquiring more appropriate equipment. Granted it is nerfing to an extreme but it allows for invading players to use skill, not equipment, to defeat other players. As Rynn said, mechanics are what need work, not the concept.
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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:59 pm

    Just a heads up, the people invading you are probably SL1-20, using a glitch so they they can have top grade gear. So it isn't that they are that high of a level compared to you, outside of Blue Spirits. But its that they are using gear meant for an SL75+.
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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by DamageCK on Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:03 pm

    I got no beef with the current system, just game mechanics.


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by ParasiticEve on Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:08 pm

    You're in the same boat with me somewhat I mostly go by worst case scenario in terms of invaders, but before I stopped playing I actually took a chance and began fighting invaders back pretty decent. Granted I lost a lot, I did win my share. Once you get a strong weapon you're comfortable with and some good armor as well, mod them and try going back in human form and fighting back. I stayed in Hollow form or offline mode till I did the mentioned things.



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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Ghadis_God on Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

    Invading isn't always a cakewalk either. Sure there are those guys flipping in Havels with elemental weapons that lower levels don't stand a chance against, but when I make a somewhat fair invading build, I get killed often by squads of three people waiting in the same place to farm invaders for souls. Imagine if I lost all of my souls because I invaded people who I literally stood no chance against because they were more than twice my level or ganging up on me.

    Second of all, the host has multiple advantages over an invader. You can heal yourself with flasks, you can summon help, you can escape an invasion by challenging the boss, etc. Dark souls is a risk/reward game, and with the benefits of playing human comes the risk of getting invaded. Remember, this game is supposed to kill you. Invaders might as well be part of the environment, just more enemies you have to deal with.


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Baiulus on Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:10 pm

    You're suggestions are trying to make the game easier on you.
    If anything, the creators would want to make the game even MORE difficult for you.

    I think we can all agree that the creators go out of their way to bully a player during PvE, so I doubt they have much problem with you being 'bullied' in PvP.
    The invasion system is a unique and original online gameplay, and I don't want it to get screwed up by such silly problems like "It's not fair!"
    I want you to go online in any single PvP game that involved fighting other players, and tell me how many times someone uses some cheap trick or tactic to screw you over.

    The fact of the matter is, people are going to be Douches no matter what you do. It's a lesson you can take out of the game with you. The only difference with Dark Souls is that people are Douches in a unique manner.

    If you can't handle such things, I don't advise PvPing at all.


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:13 pm

    Might I suggest setting up a sparring match with someone to maybe brush up on your PvP skills? Just make sure the person is actually going to be helpful, and not just DWGR flip with a vit gouged ele toon, because long fights are what is going to be useful.

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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Sephiroth0011 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:33 pm

    Rynn wrote:Invasions are flawed due to exploited mechanics. The mechanics need work, not the idea of invasions.
    All the more reason to implement my fairly basic system.

    Invading isn't always a cakewalk either. Sure there are those guys
    flipping in Havels with elemental weapons that lower levels don't stand a
    chance against, but when I make a somewhat fair invading build, I get
    killed often by squads of three people waiting in the same place to farm
    invaders for souls. Imagine if I lost all of my souls because I invaded
    people who I literally stood no chance against because they were more
    than twice my level or ganging up on me.

    Second of all, the host
    has multiple advantages over an invader. You can heal yourself with
    flasks, you can summon help, you can escape an invasion by challenging
    the boss, etc. Dark souls is a risk/reward game, and with the benefits
    of playing human comes the risk of getting invaded. Remember, this game
    is supposed to kill you. Invaders might as well be part of the
    environment, just more enemies you have to deal with.
    But there are no downsides to invading? You literally lose nothing going against 3 people. You might get a bit angry but just think about all those times when you've cancelled out someones humanity.

    You're suggestions are trying to make the game easier on you.
    If anything, the creators would want to make the game even MORE difficult for you.

    I
    think we can all agree that the creators go out of their way to bully a
    player during PvE, so I doubt they have much problem with you being
    'bullied' in PvP.
    The invasion system is a unique and original online
    gameplay, and I don't want it to get screwed up by such silly problems
    like "It's not fair!"
    I want you to go online in any single PvP game
    that involved fighting other players, and tell me how many times someone
    uses some cheap trick or tactic to screw you over.

    The fact of
    the matter is, people are going to be Douches no matter what you do.
    It's a lesson you can take out of the game with you. The only difference
    with Dark Souls is that people are Douches in a unique manner.

    If you can't handle such things, I don't advise PvPing at all.
    I actually said in my post that I have avoided PvP. I'm not trying to make the game easier, I'm trying to make it even. Like I said before there are NO downsides to invading. It's ridiculous that someone can join your game, use humanity to fully heal, have amazing gear and nothing bad happens if they die.
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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Ghadis_God on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:44 pm

    If you don't want to be invaded, don't play human. It's as simple as that. Most people on the forum, when they talk about pvp, aren't talking about griefing new players, they're talking about fights between two people who created their builds and got equipment specifically to fight other players (generally at level 80 or 120). If there were huge penalties for losing an invasion, that type of PvP would crumble.


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by WyrmHero on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:48 pm

    As a dedicated invader I must tell you this. You as a host has all the advantage over an invader. You have estus, which heals faster than humanity and it's restocked easily. You have the opportunity to summon 2 players to help you, which in turn you can heal them easily with the estus. 1vs3 is insanely difficult to win, even more if the 3 players are skillful in PvP (which is rare lol). So the odds for hosts are favorable. If you want fair 1vs1, go to the unofficial PvP duel spots (Burg, Kiln and moonpit) and practice against backstab mechanics. The unofficial SL for these spots is SL 120. You'll get good in time. winking


    I posted this on a wrong thread.


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Idoloni_Belli on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:57 pm

    I welcome invaders who have way better gear than I do. Generally all of my new characters are builds I'm making for PvP, so having invaders pop in randomly is a refreshing switch up that keeps the PvE grind fun and interesting. The challenge of fighting someone like that helps you hone your skills and improve.

    While glitches have made people with gear way past their level range much more common, it would not stop these types of people from doing this. It would just take them longer to get to that point.

    It may be frustrating at times, but if you push onward and learn to deal with these people, this game can become even more rewarding.

    Or you could just go hollow. happy
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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by DamageCK on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:02 pm

    You tell 'em, Wyrm.

    That's basically the deal, guys. It's a risk you take both as a host and invader. Sometimes the other player is a deebag. Eat it and move on. Hosts have advantages, vaders have advanrages, but if you really want to get down to it, the simple fact that a host can summon pretty much trumps anything an invader can do. If youre playing online in human form, you're gonna get invaded. Period. If you don't want to be, go hollow or offline.

    There's really nothing wrong with the current system of invasions, apart from fails and the occasional summoned/invade as the wrong phantom type, which is rare anyway. The real issue concerns various combat mechanics and (arguably) gear loadouts.


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:14 pm

    Agreed here. In most places where invasions are common, so are summon signs. Summon one or two players and the invader will have a rough time. Being invaded is just part of the game. Exploiting the glitches is another matter entirely.

    Here's a strategy for Anor Londo, if you don't want to get invaded, yet you want coop help for the boss. Play hollow until the bonfire after the Archers. Unlock the shortcut door on that same level (go up the stairs, past the archer, down the stairs, to the room on the right (across from the titanite demon), kill the first Silver knight (the second one's agro range is very short, go through the door at the bottom and you're very close to the bonfire). Go human. Many times, I have seen 10+ summon signs there. Summon 2 people and you are set. Bonfire right next to the boss. You don't have to backtrack much to get to the boss.

    EDIT: 40-60 = prime SL to see summon signs in Anor, IME.


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:09 pm

    As others have said, hosts have advantages that invaders don't have. I won't re-iterate them. But I will add:

    You do get benefits from killing invaders. If you die, you lose a humanity. If you win, you gain a humanity. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. And, if you kill the invader, you get 1/2 the amount of souls it would take him to level up 1 SL. An invader killing a host gets 1/5 the amount of souls--just another benefit hosts get over invaders.

    Also, the Darkmoon invaders, which are the ones you suggested should be kept, are the most broken. For one thing, it's possible for them to be of higher level than you when they invade, whereas reds are lower level than you (not to mention: they have at their disposal the strongest weapon buffing spell in the game; higher level than you + strongest weapon buff...). Also, they don't give any humanity when you kill them, which is very annoying. When a blue invades, the outcomes are: stay at the same amount of humanity, or lose 1--no option to gain.

    Finally, and most importantly: invading is a CRUCIAL part of Dark Souls's balance. The simple ability to summon phantoms to help you makes the game a walk in the park. Any new player can summon 2 expert players and the phantoms will quickly beat any area for him, the host doesn't have to do anything at all. That's why invaders are necessary: they come in and try to even the odds, by taking on the 2 experienced players and the host at once, while the host has the ability to heal all 3 at the same time with his estus.

    If you think this is unfair, you're just not taking advantage of the benefits of being human, and complaining about the drawbacks. If you were summoning people, then you should definitely not complain, because that's precisely why invaders are in the game. And if you're not summoning people, then you can't complain either because you're giving yourself a handicap by allowing people to invade you while not taking advantage of being able to summon. Either way, you can't complain.


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by WyrmHero on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:12 pm

    ^Yes


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:13 pm

    Good points BLA1NE.


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:22 am

    @Sephiroth

    Welcome to the forums, by the way. (I see you only have 2 posts.) Just because we don't all share your opinions, doesn't mean we don't welcome you!

    But honestly, I don't think you're anywhere near ready to criticize Dark Souls's online mechanics, since you admit you avoid PvP, and it's pretty clear you've never invaded yourself. If you had, you'd realize 2 things:

    1. Invaders go through a lot of bad **** too!

    2. Invading is a ton of fun. Don't deprive yourself just because your first reaction is that invaders are assholes. We're really not. It's a different side of the game, but an intrinsic, necessary, and also very fun one!

    Invading is misunderstood by new players, but you have to look at it with a positive point of view. It is a necessary part of the game, it is fun, and invaders aren't ***(well, some of them are...). But if you'd ever been invaded by me, I guarantee you wouldn't have felt bad after (and I rarely kill the same host twice, too).

    But... I am on break from the game right now, so I don't know if I'll ever invade you!


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    Re: Future of PvP

    Post by Azran on Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:57 am

    Invading is a ton of fun.

    This. A thousand times this. I always suffered from jerk invaders, you know the kind, Havel-Flipping, Lightning Zweihander-wielding guys at low soul levels. Then decided to invade myself.

    And it's a lot of fun. Even if you die, it's kind of hard to actually get mad. Even if you are ganked, something silly can happen, like the host's ghosts falling to their deaths with you because they did Well What is it near a ledge.


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