A quest to understand backstabs better!

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    Rynn
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    A quest to understand backstabs better!

    Post by Rynn on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:48 am

    Why is a dagger better then a straight sword for backstabs? Because 136 critical.
    But what does that mean? I seek to find out what these differences in numbers actually mean, and I already have a small theory.

    http://tinyurl.com/cxvb87s
    So the weapons in the left hand, Mail Breaker and Dagger, each hit about the same amount on a backstab... the weapons on the right hand also hit about the same amount as each other, but the rapier does more damage...

    If we adjust their crit rates on a percentage grade...
    Rapier = 220/224.8 damage...
    Bandit Knife = 240.24/243.36 damage...
    Which can then be calculated into defense, and the rapier should in most cases inch ahead due to having less defense to mitigate.

    similarily, the other two weapons similarily add up.

    Mail Breaker = 187.2/190.8
    Dagger = 201.74/204.36

    In both cases, the daggers are weaker then their rapier counteparts due to defense, as BLAINS analysis on real defense contributions indicates could be expected to happen... and so I can easily indicate why Rapiers do more backstab damage...

    Today, I hope to further examine this value by taking another slashing weapon, likely a straight sword, and finding out how much AR is neccesary for it to backstab for the same damage value as a bandits knife hits. Presumably, I believe it will need only 56% higher AR to backstab the precise same value... but if memory serves me correctly, a +5 lightning short sword does not hit the same damage as a +5 lightning dagger, and according to my calculations... those would have the same AR. This forces me to need to take a more in depth look at the backstab mechanic in order to find out how much damage it would cause under certain circumstances.

    Any suggestions on tests I could do?
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    Re: A quest to understand backstabs better!

    Post by Heroez Blade on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:59 am

    I would like to understand backstabs as well. This kid that invaded me backstabbed me 2 times with a mailbreaker (?upgrade) and practicly killed me. I don't see how a tiny weapon like that does ore damage than a greatsword or axe.


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    Re: A quest to understand backstabs better!

    Post by User on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:10 pm

    A mailbreaker is meant to hit you in the precise spots... Greataxes and swords are meant to hit everything all around. There ain't much precise shooting for such large weapons at the human bodies' special spots of antagonizing pain... You can't really do a cut throat technique with such people behind them, as you could with a smaller weapon.
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    Re: A quest to understand backstabs better!

    Post by Heroez Blade on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:38 pm

    True.. I just didnt think a weapon with lower stats would do more damage, but i guess it depends on where you hit and the critical hit value.


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    Re: A quest to understand backstabs better!

    Post by Specter737 on Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:30 pm

    I think it's just a matter of balance, regarding both weapons, and combat in general.
    If every weapon, excelled at backstabs, I think that the hornets ring would almost be a necessity for pvp if one did not want to be back stabbed into oblivion.
    Likewise, all the existing weapons have strengths and drawbacks.
    More on what Acidic was getting at, it's obviously a lot more logistically sound to go for the "sweet spots" with a very small, very maneuverable weapon such as a dagger/knife, whereas larger weapons such as a greatsword or axe just aren't meant much of anything more than slow but powerful cleaving or bludgeoning attacks.

    I see what you're saying though.

    Also sorry if I'm just stating the obvious. It's been a long day.


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    Re: A quest to understand backstabs better!

    Post by Dark Spirit EliteBiker20 on Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:33 am

    Honestly, I prefer a riposte over a backstab, but if I manage to backstab an invader (without fishing) than I am pretty happy about it. I dont however like getting backstabbed, especially when its a lag stab or a chain backstab. Those things absolutely tick me off. :x

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    Re: A quest to understand backstabs better!

    Post by samster628 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:50 pm

    too many people fish for backstabs. it is so annoying. And with the connection of most hosts theres generally also Jack s*** you can do about it.


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    Re: A quest to understand backstabs better!

    Post by BrotherBob on Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:42 pm

    I just have something interesting to add. I did some experiments with the CMW buff and it's effect on backstab damage. At 50 INT and using the Tin Crystallization Catalyst, I can add 410 Magic damage to enchantable weapons. Here's what's interesting. By now, we probably all know that weapons have different backstab animations. For instance, greatswords do one poke in the back. A Great Club hits them lightly once then follows with a devastating blow. So, the interesting thing is that if I pull off a backstab with a buffed CMW weapon, every time I make contact with my enemy in the backstab animation, I do 250 additional damage as a result of my Magic damage from the buff. For example, if I buffed one of the greatswords, I would deal an additional 250 damage in the backstab. With the great club, I'll deal an additional 500 damage since I "hit" my opponent twice.
    How did I find this out? Well, I took a dagger and did a backstab on a Black Knight. I took the same dagger and buffed it (as described above) and backstabbed him again. I found that the dagger did an extra 250 damage this time. I did the same experiment with a Painting Guardian Sword, and a Man-Serpent Greatsword. I got the same results. I then did the experiment with a Great Club. The first hit dealt an extra 250 damage. The second dealt an extra 250 as well, for a grand total of 500 extra damage.


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    Re: A quest to understand backstabs better!

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:47 pm

    I'd say the best way to test is with a friend, online. This way you can completely be in control of the subject you backstab (and in particular, their defense stats) as well as your own weapons, etc.

    In terms of method, I'm not so sure. If you go regular upgrade, you might have slight scaling differences which will affect your outcome. If you go elemental, you'll be dealing bullsh*t elemental damage and not getting a true feel for the real weapon and its backstab.

    If you can ensure consistent defense (or lackthereof) from a friend online, though, you might be able to mess around with it enough to understand how backstabs generally work and what the backstab rating really means.


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