Is this what PVP is about?

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    darkREPRISAL
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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by darkREPRISAL on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:41 am

    I got some hate mail the other day accusing me of fishing for BS...given I've probably only taken part in 50-100 PvP matches I'm not entirely sure I even know what this means, let alone being guilty of it....is it possible to fish for backstabs with a Lightning Zwei?? My main aim when using that weapon is to get one hit, then see if I can get another one to connect fairly quickly afterwards....

    Oh well, some people gon' hate no matter what I guess....


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:45 am

    @dark they probably saw the weapon and assumed. Fishing isnt done unless you are fishing. Or yuo may have been circling your foe and they mistook your intent.

    @Rynn My main non Fh toon is my orntstein cosplay, so dead angles arent gonna happen. Althogh I havent tried lock off in pvp much yet, I should. Its just not instincticve enough to unlock after so long PvEing.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:45 am

    Honestly, the only thing that really grinds my gears is the taunting. If I get a person intent on fighting dirty/dishonorably and they wind up killing me I can usually just roll my eyes and move on to the next one. I'm disappointed that a fight that I had to wait to get set up turned out to be a bust, but I'm not upset; I can get over that.

    What does bother me is when a player uses said cheap tactics and then follows it up by Point Down Shrug Look Skyward Well What is it

    It's not that I dislike because it makes me feel bad, it rubs me the wrong way because it leaves me questioning the human condition. I usually leave thinking, "Really? You think what you just did was that GREAT, really?" I usually even want to send a message asking them to explain their delusions, but usually I can control myself.

    Whatever, le sigh...

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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by Rynn on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:47 am

    darkREPRISAL wrote:I got some hate mail the other day accusing me of fishing for BS...given I've probably only taken part in 50-100 PvP matches I'm not entirely sure I even know what this means, let alone being guilty of it....is it possible to fish for backstabs with a Lightning Zwei?? My main aim when using that weapon is to get one hit, then see if I can get another one to connect fairly quickly afterwards....

    Oh well, some people gon' hate no matter what I guess....
    I'd blame your weapon for that accusation. The lightning Zweihander is a "Classic" weapon for backstab fishing. As it goes about 1200 damage when you with someone with it... Every single backstabber in the game has probably done it. Which is a shame, because it sounds like you use it in an absolutely interesting manner, and I like interesting weapons.

    EDIT: Doughguy, if the person is running circles around you, you WILL dead angle them with ANY weapon. Lag is a two way street, and they get hit.
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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by dancash1808 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:52 am

    Interesting tactic I ran into with a BS fisher using a zwei however.... take one swing. if the opponent staggers strafe for the BS... much more effective than just circling I will grant you.

    also dough sell out winking try a SLB partizan and dead angle the fools all day. although why you would ever be in BS range with a DSS is very mysterious.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by Federally on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:57 am

    Rynn wrote:PvP is about having fun. We've all forgotten this! I no longer feel angry when I get backstabbed, nor ganked. I laugh it off and fight the next opponent, because win or loose, I have a giant sword, and I'm a dangerous warrior.

    It is too easy to get sucked into a competitive nature, just play the game, don't worry yourself to death about winning.

    The problem is BS soaks the fun out of the game. Dark Souls has an amazing combat system, probably the best melee combat in gaming right now and its loads of fun, but the BS mechanics as currently included is out of balance with the rest of the combat. This improper balance makes BS the most powerful move, it does massive damage and doesn't have the same risk associated with a parry attempt. This means players will concentrate on BS as a primary form of combat, and simultaneously abandon everything that makes Dark Souls combat great.

    I don't blame players for BS fishing or having any of the other BS centered play styles, its the single best way to win the fight, but I instead feel sad at the loss of a potentially great experience. PvP has become a BS centered competition when it could be so much better, and it's such a bummer.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:05 am

    I still think the solution would be to institute a MUCH smaller hit-box for backstabs and alright eliminate them for certain weapons. The Zwei for example.

    Case in point: A Dagger user can backstab but it is a difficult maneuver to perform, with the exception of cases where the opposing fighter attempts one of those 2-handed lunging attacks and winds up missing everything including the barn door and is left totally open. Otherwise, the Dagger user gets only counter damage.

    Zwei/BKGA users lose the ability to backstab and get counter damage instead.

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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by dancash1808 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:08 am

    i like this solution pendant however people would gravitate to the cutoff point.
    I think the cutoff should be katana's or equivalent
    it kinda seems silly that someone would stand unobjecting for the amount of time it would take to lift and build the momentum to force a UGS through your back.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:11 am

    Especially since if you do it to a NPC they actually take the time to look at you while you do it. I'd say straight swords and katanas would be the cut off.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by dancash1808 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:14 am

    *NPC looks round* "....Really dude?" and maybe the washing pole should be too big too twisted
    what about spears?


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by Federally on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:16 am

    dancash1808 wrote:i like this solution pendant however people would gravitate to the cutoff point.
    I think the cutoff should be katana's or equivalent
    it kinda seems silly that someone would stand unobjecting for the amount of time it would take to lift and build the momentum to force a UGS through your back.

    Simple fact is, a BS isn't gonna happen against an opponent actively engaging you in combat with anything bigger then a knife/dagger. It's kind of immersion breaking how absurd 95% of BS's look, and I'm including PvE BS in this.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:17 am

    Spears and other long weapon like sythes wouldnt be allowed to, as they require the recipient to stand around for a few seconds while the BSer steps back 2 feet so he can actually hit their back with the spear point. Also the great scythe BS involves shoving the shaft through their back without a blade cutting the way.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by dancash1808 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:21 am

    Oh god I know the scythe looks so ridiculous. a throat cut option would have worked or something...
    also fed. if the other guy just slammed a zweihander to the floor I think being able to perforate him with a Longsword/uchi/rapier is perfectly reasonable.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by Federally on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:26 am

    dancash1808 wrote:Oh god I know the scythe looks so ridiculous. a throat cut option would have worked or something...
    also fed. if the other guy just slammed a zweihander to the floor I think being able to perforate him with a Longsword/uchi/rapier is perfectly reasonable.

    But that's not what you're doing, you stand them up and shove a sword through them. Getting a good solid counter attack is reasonable, getting a OHKO evisceration is not.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by dancash1808 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:46 am

    OHKO evisceration? my BS'es barely do more than my normal attacks. BSS aint that amazing for them when normally your looking at counter damage + heavy attack bonus.
    the whole standing up thing is annoying and I think it just suggests a lack of time to do more animations


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by Federally on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:58 am

    dancash1808 wrote:OHKO evisceration? my BS'es barely do more than my normal attacks. BSS aint that amazing for them when normally your looking at counter damage + heavy attack bonus.
    the whole standing up thing is annoying and I think it just suggests a lack of time to do more animations

    Oh, so your BS doesn't do that much damage. So since you're the only DkS player, we obviously have no problem silly


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by dancash1808 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:01 am

    Captain facetious strikes again! winking I thought you were limiting that to chat silly
    anyway I do agree that the BS needs rebalancing but unless your built for it you wont be coming up with OHKO's


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by ShahrumbiMahraab on Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:44 pm

    I think part of my problem with backstabs stems from the fact that I fight mostly japanese players. Matches are always laggy and more often than not they are teleporting a few feet every couple seconds.

    It's good to see alot of opinions on the matter and it looks like I'll just have to get really good at countering these attempts and coping with the lag between my opponent and me.

    I agree alot with what you said, DoughGuy. Especially the longer and closer the match is, the more fun it is.

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Honestly, the only thing that really grinds my gears is the taunting. If I get a person intent on fighting dirty/dishonorably and they wind up killing me I can usually just roll my eyes and move on to the next one. I'm disappointed that a fight that I had to wait to get set up turned out to be a bust, but I'm not upset; I can get over that.

    What does bother me is when a player uses said cheap tactics and then follows it up by

    It's not that I dislike because it makes me feel bad, it rubs me the wrong way because it leaves me questioning the human condition. I usually leave thinking, "Really? You think what you just did was that GREAT, really?" I usually even want to send a message asking them to explain their delusions, but usually I can control myself.

    Whatever, le sigh...

    I'm usually the opposite when it comes to taunting. I feel like if they win with some cheap tactic, they SHOULD taunt. It's when they bow that ticks me off. Do they feel like it was a fairly won fight, popping divine blessing and chain backstabbing me in a corner? I feel like I need to invade them again and again until they die.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by johnnyjwa on Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:27 pm

    ShahrumbiMahraab wrote:It seems like people fight fair to an extent, until they know they are being outplayed. So they immedietly pull out their shield and start fishing for backstabs. It's getting rather ridiculous...

    It seems that this is what Dark Souls PvP is all about. Backstabbing. If you don't want to backstab and try to win legitimately, then you're in for a hell of a rough time. Every single person I've encountered has lowered themselves to backstab fishing tonight. Every. Single. Person.

    The thing that gets me is that they have the nerve to bow as if it was an honorable fight after healing and fishing in the BURG.

    I get that backstabbing is part of the game, but to really lower yourself to fishing and using divine blessings when you know you've lost is rather pathetic and frustrating. I honestly don't see how the game can be fun for these people.

    This so much this omg it makes me rage.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by Carphil on Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:48 pm

    I can tell by both points of view

    My connection currently:
    http://www.speedtest.net/result/2072935308.png

    Not bad, but also not great. I have a bit of lag here and there, but I can play normally w no problems

    Last week, I was traveling and using this:
    http://www.speedtest.net/result/2072930978.png
    And dude, I could barely invade or see any sign, when they invaded me, they could BS, use spells, parry and do everything without no problem, but I could not see them doing! They were teleporting all time and with a horrible framerate! By this I assume that the player with the best connection has the advantage


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:08 pm

    Okay just spotted this thread, and I have noticed a sharp incline in the amount of BSers in the burg - luckily you can see the signs that they are going for one and counter bs-ing. What I will normally do after the counter bs is rather than chain I will 2h my weapon (currently Chaos Blade, I know - cookie cutter Chris ) but anyway, I will kick them on wakeup and rather than chaining the bs hit them with the weapon, it has a large chance to stunlock and in turn bleed them. It is rather cheap however it is just one of the counters to their playstyles. I tend to get parries on a lot of players now also but you have to prove to them their BS attempts are futile and will only hurt them before they play normally. Most of the players last night after the first match realizing they will only get punished for the BS attempt started playing normally.

    Anyway this is a rather controversial topic, LA - each to their own but I would appreciate not spreading iness on threads.

    Much Appreciated

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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:44 pm

    I have absolutely no problem with backstabs whatsoever. Lag on the other hand. With my weapon choice and playstyle, backstabs are easier for me to avoid than a good deal of other tactics. But here's a story about lag that is fairly representative of the problem and could be less horrid with a couple hit box or other tweaks.

    So I readily pronounce my Great Scythe love constantly. I was fighting a guy and doing some circling. Occasionally I will take a swipe from nowhere near the opponent (2x scythe range usually, so yeah.....BIG gap) as it often makes them think I will be swing happy and will either play my distance game or come in aggressive. Both things work for me 1v1. So I hit the guy once in range then do this trick almost immediately as he's retreating. I got backstabbed.....um.......he's halfway across the forest (a little hyperbole but not much) and retreating as far as anyone who can a) see and b) is not hallucinating can tell and I get backstabbed? Not cool internet!

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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by omega Elf on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:35 pm

    you should welcome backstab fishing opponents their easy kills, if your having trouble with them an easy solution is to just kick them
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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:23 pm

    Haha skare once I got BSed from half the forest away. And I didnt teleport back, the dude was actually doing to animation so far away I had to search for him.

    To those who dislike taunting I have a method to deal with it. Whenever I pvp I go on the forums at the same timre. As soon as lose I turn to the forums and starting looking through topics, rather than watch the screen. It helps because you dont see the taunts and you can just pretend they didnt happen.


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    Re: Is this what PVP is about?

    Post by ICEFANG on Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:17 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Haha skare once I got BSed from half the forest away. And I didnt teleport back, the dude was actually doing to animation so far away I had to search for him.

    To those who dislike taunting I have a method to deal with it. Whenever I pvp I go on the forums at the same timre. As soon as lose I turn to the forums and starting looking through topics, rather than watch the screen. It helps because you dont see the taunts and you can just pretend they didnt happen.

    I find this advice quite humorous and good. If someone sends hatemail afterwords, I usually respond with love, they never know quite what to do...

    -Get some skill you bleh bleh bleh
    -I really like you <3 we should co-op sometime

    I completely agree with skarekrow13, but I find it ironic that our favorite weapons are Halberds (Gargoyle's for me). I feel that may be a reason we feel that way.

    However, backstabs aren't done pretty poorly really in some situations. I mean they back away and heal, and you backstab, it makes sense (usually enough), if they swing and completely miss, and are slightly staggered or kissing the ground (Zwei style), its a way for faster low poise builds (if they exist) to deal with them. I don't feel a problem with backstabs really (as he said, lagstabs are a big yes, I hate them), but I feel the problem is with poise, and not from the Wolf Ring, but from the DWGR.

    It would be logical to assume that, other than chain backstabs, a backstab focused player will need the hornets ring to kill its foes in 1-2 hits. If this is true, then there are some other things that a backstabber would want:
    Speed, which is very important for getting around the person (try to BS with fat roll, impossible, no, likely? Not so much).
    Poise, which allows them to be hit, and ignore it, pretending that all hornet ring users automatically had 0 poise, would they be dangerous whatsoever?
    HP/Armor, for hits taken with poise and backstabs that miss. Should they hit and not backstab, and the target was a hard hitter or had a lot of poise, it the target would ground pound them. HP is important for bs vs bs as well.

    The DWGR gives all of those things. If the backstabber could only (once again, assuming that he was based on backstabbing and used the hornet's ring), have poise with the wolf ring, or move fast with lighter armor, or didn't have a shield and only a weapon (to add more weight for armor with poise), or could only be at medium speed. Their effectiveness would greatly diminish.

    Now, if you ask me, I will tell you truthfully I hate the DWGR, and I didn't come to this thread to complain about it, but that is really my view with backstabs. I don't have a problem with them, but there is a logical complaint in them, and I believe that would be the greatest problem.

    In some ways, I actually like how the system works. I think I'd prefer a no backstab system, but this way is very tense, very on edge. Unfortunately, even the small lag that usually exists can really break the fun tension with even a little laggystab.

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