The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

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    The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Greatfox1313 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:35 am

    This could very well be my own sleep deprived rantings, however I would like to share something I was thinking about earlier that makes some semblance of sense, at least to me anyway. Apologies if this has already been discussed or even if it is common knowledge/theory. The Covetous Gold/Silver Serpent Ring mentions that the Serpent is an imperfect dragon and a symbol of the undead. If we take this information farther, perhaps much farther than is intended, would that imply that the Undead are/will be/were imperfect dragons? In "The Dark Lord" ending, you are seeminly being worshipped/praised by Primordial Serpents, is it because you are Lord of the imperfect dragons? There are obviously at least two Primordial Serpents who "help" you along the way, perhaps they are undead too. (The true form of the Undead?) Ultimately, this may mean very little in terms of anything, but it's Dark Souls, you never really know.

    Hopefully it doesn't sound too far off, but I'm hardly one to judge. Any comments/thoughts/criticisms are greatly appreciated.
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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by About8547Souls on Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:52 am

    I entertained an idea very similar to this awhile back. Seeing as how it is stated that the Serpent is the symbol of the Undead and all of that. It also mentions that it is a symbol of Gluttony, and this could perhaps be due to the Undead constantly hoarding humanity to keep themselves from becoming Hollow. Either way, it is something fun to think about.

    It is possible Kaathe or Frampt are undead, maybe even undead from the past that tried to become Dragons in some manner but failed.

    It's something we'll never know I guess. Unless From decides to spill the beans on everything. (Likely they simply called serpents imperfect dragons because of the scales, eyes, etc. I'm willing to bet they never gave second thought to a lot of the lore, which is why fans are always wondering about things. From has always been like this, they love making an incredible story and then leaving giant holes in it everywhere.)


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:59 am

    The undead are humans who have the dark sign. While there theoretically is a way for undead to become dragons (through the stone dragon cov) they are no more related to the dragons than humans are.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Federally on Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:27 am

    Do they say anything different if you talk to them in dragon form?


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:53 am

    I doubt it. Rynn's played through the entire game as a dragonoid. Nothing new.

    Also, I also think the undead aren't related to the dragons so incredibly. Though, there could be some kind of connection, but the only one we know of is this.

    The Serpents are incomplete dragons. They are also a symbol of the undead, and gluttony.
    there may be some symbolic connections, but, really, the...

    Uhh. My typing just stopped because, well, there's a serpant on Gwyn's chest. It is known that Gwyn is not human. Was he ever confirmed to NOT be undead? Why does he have the symbol of the undead on his chest?!?!?!?!


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Federally on Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:56 am

    JoeBroski09 wrote:I doubt it. Rynn's played through the entire game as a dragonoid. Nothing new.

    Also, I also think the undead aren't related to the dragons so incredibly. Though, there could be some kind of connection, but the only one we know of is this.

    The Serpents are incomplete dragons. They are also a symbol of the undead, and gluttony.
    there may be some symbolic connections, but, really, the...

    Uhh. My typing just stopped because, well, there's a serpant on Gwyn's chest. It is known that Gwyn is not human. Was he ever confirmed to NOT be undead? Why does he have the symbol of the undead on his chest?!?!?!?!

    Gwyn is one of those undead hollow things we see stand up out of the fire in the opening.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:59 am

    We don't know if they're undead. What's the difference between human and undead? The undead have the dark sign. Humans don't. I doubt that Gwyn had the dark sign from the start.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:25 am

    The dark sign is an aberration (imo) caused by the relighting of the flame. It makes sense for Gwyn to have earnt his own. Gwyn's chest serpents have been known for a time. He is friends with frampt so thats an easy connection.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Federally on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:35 am

    JoeBroski09 wrote:We don't know if they're undead. What's the difference between human and undead? The undead have the dark sign. Humans don't. I doubt that Gwyn had the dark sign from the start.

    Shrug Not really sure what to call those things anyway. They're humanoid but not human, they are what every non undead Npc, the ones that exist in all worlds, started as. Gwyn also appears to hollow, but he can't hollow because he isn't undead, so he must be reverting back to what he started as.

    Not really sure what I'm going on about as my wife interrupted me several times while writing this and I totally lost my train of thought.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:42 am

    The things at the beginning are the "root race" of humanity. Think homo sapiens of Lordran. Gwyn was possibly one of them or possibly a god beforehand. Like I said its possible for him to have a sign.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Federally on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:47 am

    DoughGuy wrote:The things at the beginning are the "root race" of humanity. Think homo sapiens of Lordran. Gwyn was possibly one of them or possibly a god beforehand. Like I said its possible for him to have a sign.

    There were no gods before those things. The gods are simply the few that found the lord souls, that's it. They didnt exist before hand because all that existed was dragons and arch trees. So without a lord soul Gwyn is just one of those hollow looking things wandering around doin nothin.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:49 am

    So who is Flann? He's a flame god but he didnt find a lord soul. What about Gwyndolin and presumably Gwynevere and the GoW? Where are their lord souls?


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Federally on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:52 am

    DoughGuy wrote:So who is Flann? He's a flame god but he didnt find a lord soul. What about Gwyndolin and presumably Gwynevere and the GoW? Where are their lord souls?

    Flann is a Mexican dessert.

    The rest of the names you mention are all descendants of Gwyn. They don't have lord souls, they are special being with special souls, there is a distinct difference. You should know this.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:54 am

    The point stand about Flann. He is a flame god, and he left for carim with gwynevere. And while Dolin only has a special soul he is still considered a god, and has all the powers that come of it. This means its likely he is of the same level of power as other gods.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by cloudyeki on Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:08 am

    I'm sure there was a thread questioning what made the gods, well.... gods. But lets return to the topic of the serpents connection to the undead and the dragon.

    For some reason I always come back to alchemy for these two. One is seen as a 'flawed' human, bound to go crazy without a constant amount of strange black sprites and marked by the dark sign. As for dragons, they're like something beyond human, beyond time, life, and death, and from what I've gathered, without the NEED for sustenance (only way to explain how gaping and the everlasting dragon manages to survive, they don't require food. Gaping just enjoyed it enough to go crazy and change).

    The rings are a prime reason why I come back to this, as gold and silver are 'perfect' material, as well that there are (dragon)stones that help the undead become more than even human. Then again, it could all just be coincidence.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by samster628 on Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:23 am

    lloyd talisman or some other object confirms lloyd is gwyns uncle. so yes there were gos before the 4 who claimed the flame.

    unless when gwyn claimed the flame he somehow gave some power to his uncle, dad, cousin flann (just a guess), etc. well to be fair we already know gwyn can give his power to others (eg seath, 4 kings)


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Shkar on Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:33 pm

    1. The Dark Sign appeared when the flame started fading again, not when the flame was first linked.
    2. I think the serpent is a symbol of the undead because neither can die. They are both immortal.
    3. Both serpents refer to themselves as THE Primordial Serpent, and the rings say THE serpent (fun fact, they might be one massive hydra).
    4. One definition of Primordial is a creator. Perhaps the Serpent CREATED dragons, as a "complete" version of itself.
    5. The Intro shows the dragons with stone scales, but the only evidence in game is the Dragon Scale item. Every offspring of the dragons and every head in Anor Londo have normal, non-stone scales.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:43 pm

    Federally wrote:Gwyn is one of those undead hollow things we see stand up out of the fire in the opening.

    Then how is his Uncle Lloyd?
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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:55 pm

    Shkar wrote:1. The Dark Sign appeared when the flame started fading again, not when the flame was first linked.
    2. I think the serpent is a symbol of the undead because neither can die. They are both immortal.
    3. Both serpents refer to themselves as THE Primordial Serpent, and the rings say THE serpent (fun fact, they might be one massive hydra).
    4. One definition of Primordial is a creator. Perhaps the Serpent CREATED dragons, as a "complete" version of itself.
    5. The Intro shows the dragons with stone scales, but the only evidence in game is the Dragon Scale item. Every offspring of the dragons and every head in Anor Londo have normal, non-stone scales.

    I actually did a breakdown of the opening cinematic once. Essentially, I found it interesting that the world was pretty much barren and riddled with fog, so I theorized that the history actually begins after a war in which the Dragons killed off the lesser-formed Serpents, who were the original, or primordial, race in the world (fog = fog of war, the more perfect Dragons arose from the grey crags, etc.)

    Just like how one Everlasting Dragon survived, a Primordial Serpent (or two, or a Hydra of them, or whatever) survived. Whether or not they were responsible for the Flame, or creating man, or whatever I'm not sure, but essentially it's just a cycle or races causing extinctions toward one another.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Shkar on Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:17 pm

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:
    Shkar wrote:1. The Dark Sign appeared when the flame started fading again, not when the flame was first linked.
    2. I think the serpent is a symbol of the undead because neither can die. They are both immortal.
    3. Both serpents refer to themselves as THE Primordial Serpent, and the rings say THE serpent (fun fact, they might be one massive hydra).
    4. One definition of Primordial is a creator. Perhaps the Serpent CREATED dragons, as a "complete" version of itself.
    5. The Intro shows the dragons with stone scales, but the only evidence in game is the Dragon Scale item. Every offspring of the dragons and every head in Anor Londo have normal, non-stone scales.

    I actually did a breakdown of the opening cinematic once. Essentially, I found it interesting that the world was pretty much barren and riddled with fog, so I theorized that the history actually begins after a war in which the Dragons killed off the lesser-formed Serpents, who were the original, or primordial, race in the world (fog = fog of war, the more perfect Dragons arose from the grey crags, etc.)

    Just like how one Everlasting Dragon survived, a Primordial Serpent (or two, or a Hydra of them, or whatever) survived. Whether or not they were responsible for the Flame, or creating man, or whatever I'm not sure, but essentially it's just a cycle or races causing extinctions toward one another.

    I find that unlikely, since the general consensus (I disagree with it) is that the dragons existed BEFORE the flame (which is actually just fire as a whole), which would mean that there would have been a war of two species killing each other off before life even existed.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:11 pm

    Yeah, I disagree too, because the point of my theory is that history is subjective, and thus the flame coming into existence (which I thought was actually theorized to just be the sun?) is the 'start of life' from the perspective of our humans - they were born, and they knew the world was mostly filled with fog and stone dragons, and then they killed them all. That's it.

    I suppose Seathe might know Dragon History, but good luck getting him to tell you, especially considering this whole Undead Curse was put into place in order to keep you down to begin with.

    I just prefer to interpret it literally, and such that the Primordial Serpents are actually primordial.


    Last edited by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Shkar on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:16 pm

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:Yeah, but the point of my theory is that history is subjective, and thus the flame coming into existence (which I thought was actually theorized to just be the sun?) is the 'start of life' from the perspective of our humans - they were born, and they knew the world was mostly filled with fog and stone dragons, and then they killed them all.

    Again, I prefer to interpret it literally, and such that the Primordial Serpents are actually primordial.

    I still think it IS the sun (most people still don't agree) that started it, but the whole "first flame" part is actually wrong, or rather, is inaccurate. It doesn't matter what the FIRST fire is. The Intro doesn't say "then there was The Flame", it says "Then there was Fire." Not A Fire, just FIRE. As in, as a whole, there was fire.

    Now, as for what fire could bring life, heat, and light to the world, the only answer I can think of is the sun (which later started other fires, or humans started other fire, or SOMETHING). So, Gwyn is either linking ALL the fire, or just the sun as a whole.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:22 pm

    Ah, good snag there. But yeah, in my mind the sun had to come first,
    because without the Sun there'd be no world with oxygen in it, and
    flames wouldn't exist because there'd be no oxygen to ignite them.

    Though, I am looking at it in terms of chemistry in a world full of pyromancy and dragons and giant clam dudes and such.


    Last edited by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:44 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : grammar)


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by Shkar on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:30 pm

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:Ah, good snag there. But yeah, in my mind the sun had to come first, because without the Sun there'd be no world with oxygen in it, and flames wouldn't exist because there'd be no oxygen to ignite them.

    Though, I am looking at it in terms of chemistry in a world full of pyromancy and dragons and giant clam dudes and such.

    Technically speaking, there could easily be oxygen on earth without the sun, but that's not important. What's interesting is that the archtrees were living things (they have descendents!) and grew above the mist "before" the flame. Why? Why would they grow above the mist if there was no sun?

    Also, we need to base our analysis off SOMETHING, and nobody can agree on which in-game sources are trustworthy.


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    Re: The Serpent (Spoilers possibly?)

    Post by SEANB240 on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:34 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:The undead are humans who have the dark sign. While there theoretically is a way for undead to become dragons (through the stone dragon cov) they are no more related to the dragons than humans are.

    What about Seath being a "true Undead"? Sorry if this has already been figured out.


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