Ash Lake Giant Skull

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    Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by Bcc17 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:12 am

    I haven't seen ANYTHING about this, but what the hell is that giant skull from in Ash Lake?

    Maybe the pendant mystery has been solved... /sarcasm
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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:58 am

    I always assumed it was a weathered dragon skull.


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by Carphil on Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:50 am

    I think thats not a dragon shape. In my opinion, it was a giant that escaped Tomb of Giants but not lived to tell the tale


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:27 am

    Nah, I'm telling you it's a dragon's skull.

    It clearly has a long snout, pointy teeth, and two horn-like protrusions towards the back of the head, much like a dragon.

    One thing's for sure, it is definitely not a giants skull.


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:31 am

    We debated about this in the Archives... there is a lot of information there if you look.

    But the general conclusion is that they are Dragons.

    Curious, the Skulls found in the Tomb of Giants have the same teeth, and their body is shaped to be humanoid, yet beastly also.

    Of course, you must understand that Dragons are giants, they are not small critters... Basilisks and Drakes are not Dragons... think of them as the Dragon equivalent of a Chicken (Basilisk) and a Rat (Drake).

    There are Dragons such as the Gaping and Seath that show difference than that of the Everlasting... of course that difference is probably the reason why the Great Lord Gwyn did not kill them, and instead killed the Everlasting Dragons towards extinction.
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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:06 pm

    Sorry to necro this thread, but the skull just caught my attention also, and I couldn't find the thread Acidic was talking about where it was discussed.

    Here's my take:

    I don't think it is a dragon skull. it doesn't look anything like any of the other dragon's we've seen, like nothing at all. I don't really think it looks the same as the giant skulls in the Tomb either. Granted it has more similarity to the giant's skulls than the dragons, but I think it's the skull of an ancient chaos demon. We see a few different demons throughout the game, and they all vary pretty significantly biologically, just most have horns, and big eyes, and gnarly teeth. This thing has all 3. So that got me thinking/speculating also. You can't debate that Ash Lake is an area populated by the dragons. There's 2 living ones there when you get there, and there are dragon scales all over the place. I've also heard theories that Ash Lake exists outside of Lordran, and that the great trees actually hold Lordran up off of some other plane of existence somehow, which oddly I accept to make sense. So taking those things into consideration, you could theorize that the dragons are actually guarding an area where Lordran can be escaped from, into what I would assume is the larger world. It would explain why you're attacked by a dragon as soon as you enter, and why the Everlasting Dragon is essentially forever holding a vigil at the other end, and attempts to recruit you to the cause when you approach it. If it is guarding something, recruiting a powerful being like the chosen undead would certainly be a great boon. The whole theory would also call into consideration that there was a time that the chaos demon's attempted to leave Lordran, To spread chaos? I don't know. To do whatever Demons do I guess. But that also calls into consideration that Gwyn and the other lords, killed the dragons. Maybe also trying to leave Lordran? I don't know that either, and I'm sure some of you have theorized the whole man/dragon war thing a lot more than I will now. At any rate you'd have to consider, if the dragons really are down here guarding a way out, and man killed the dragons, what the possible connotations of that would be. Maybe the end of the age of fire in general? Maybe the downfall of the race?

    Okay, now that I'm done theorizing, you can come tell me why I'm wrong.


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by XKnightArtoriasX on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:04 am

    Despite from being a Dragon or anything else's Skull. There is only ONE of it's kind in the game, right? If so then there is, no let me say it correctly. THERE F***ING IS something with it. Go over there hit it with everything at least 500 times then maybe the Everlast Dragon will leave or die which will cause the bonfire to extinguished which will lead to the true Dark Lord ending which is the same as kindling all bonfires and going for fire ending which will lead to no changes at all which will mean it's absolutely a waste of time.


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:32 am

    ... The Undead Asylum is not in Lordran?

    I don't think the dragon, the everlasting, is guarding anything.

    I don't think the mushrooms are guarding for the dragons either. Mushrooms are not exactly a sign of a healthy tree.

    The place has been broken, and not much else is accessible.

    The skull is similar to the ones in the Tomb of Giants.

    The Giants that you see in Lordran have a similar face as those of the titanite Demons (with exception of Gough, but that is because he wears a helmet. You never actually see a giant's face. Ever. And their heads are too small.

    The Dragons seem to be all different in a way. Black Dragon does not equal Everlasting. Nor Seath. Nor Gaping. Nor the Stone Dragon. They are, with the exception of the Black Dragon and Seath, are descendents of the Ancient Dragons. The Black Dragon is of the Ancients, however is NOT noted as Everlasting. Intro shows that the only one close is Stone Dragon, and the description of the sword notes this. The Stone Dragon is the only one that allows Dragon Abilities for the player, with this case becoming a Dragon Humanoid. Which, if seen, looks very similar between Everlasting/Stone Dragons

    The Undead Dragons that are seen, are known to be undead, yes. However, there are a few qualities to question about such dragons. I need to see it or find my analysis again, as my memory betrays me, but the Undead Dragon had something "off".

    The Skull is not of the Giants... in fact, there is nothing seen in the game at all that matches its head, except for the Ceaseless Discharge...

    Remember, that the Chaos Demons and the Everlasting Dragons have a very hard structure to all of them, with the exception of the Tree Demons (Stray/Asylum). The Tree Demons, however, have ties to the Stone Archtrees (given the Demon Catalyst and Demon Great Hammer's features, as well as their bodies having sticks and growth... and a giant tree sticking out of Izalith, with statues of replication for them surrounding Lost Izalith and Demon Ruins.

    Given, perhaps the Black Hydra is guarding the Dragon. However, it only goes so far, until it stops following the player. I am sure it is not guarding for the Stone Dragon either. The Basilisks... I already talked about them, but I am searching still.

    Anyways, I still say the Dragon is to that of the Everlasting. The Black Dragon is said as it is, the Black Dragon. Kalameet is never mentioned as Everlasting... just Ancient. When you watch the Intro, the Dragons that are focused upon (with the exception of Seath) are seen as all Everlasting Dragons. Their targets were also the Archtrees as well.

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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:38 am

    Acidic_Cook wrote:
    The Giants that you see in Lordran have a similar face as those of the titanite Demons (with exception of Gough, but that is because he wears a helmet. You never actually see a giant's face. Ever. And their heads are too small.

    But the titanite Demons don't have heads? They're just flat severed necks.

    Just because there are other enemies in the area, doesn't necessarily mean they're connected to the lore of the area. I'd argue that the mushrooms and basilisks have nothing to do with any of it. That they're just the wildlife that naturally lives in the area, inhabiting the hollow arch trees, or the clam type enemies that are just hanging out in the surf.

    The dragons are trying to destroy the arch trees? Where does it say that?

    I agree with you that all the dragons are drastically different from each other also, but one thing they do all seem to have in common, is that they all, or at least all the ones we're shown, have similar shaped heads. They all have heads much smaller in proportion to their bodies, and all their heads are roughly diamond shaped, kind of like snakes. Some reflect it more than others, like the Gaping Dragon, but all of them share a similar shape. Which is a shape that's nothing like the skull. The skull is much more rounded and humanoid.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:41 am

    Dragons trying to destroy archtrees? No, no, no. The Lords! They target the Everlasting Dragons, And the Trees. I'm making a connection between the Demons and Everlasting, since both clearly have tree roots. (get it?). Anyways...

    The titanite Demons are Flat, Yes. The Giants have similar surface cover, however. (Look at both their heads).

    I would argue that many of the enemies are placed in an area for a reason. Name one other enemy that does not fit in an area, and I will say otherwise. We can play this game, if you like.
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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:45 am

    Acidic_Cook wrote:I'm making a connection between the Demons and Everlasting, since both clearly have tree roots. (get it?). Anyways...

    Now that's interesting. I didn't consider that. Even the demon weapons are kind of reminiscent of roots. For example the DGM, has all those little branching things coming off of it.

    Okay, the giant mosquito enemies in blight town. You really going to tell me those aren't just animals that inhabit the area?


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:52 am

    They are related to the toxic atmosphere. They are wildlife, yes, however they are still connected to the environment, as they show similar qualities to the Leeches. One, they give of a poisonous touch. Two, they are insectoid and large. Three, they both reside in the same area. As such, although wildlife, are connected to the environment.

    The Mushrooms that you see have roots of Pine Resin. When you see them in darkroot, they are seen protecting that of an Enchanted Ember. The Enchanted Ember is Oolacile related. The Mushroom, Elizabeth, has qualities as well. She also has Oolacile realted magic to sell. Remember, that Oolacile Magic is known to manipulate the world with... well, usually light. Repair Powder might, due to its glow... hard to say.

    However, remember that the mushrooms have to attachments: Elizabeth's Mushrooms and Pine Resin. Pine Resin is known to give electric qualities, known to be bane of dragons. Elizabeth Mushrooms are the only thing that resembles replenishment, which you must know is a sunlight miracle (attached to gwyn's daughter). Both aspects are tied towards the gods of the sun.

    The gods also house creatures that are seemingly twisted, such as the Crow Demons and Winged Demons... as well as the Guardian (The Chimera). Something that is made by magic, could be known to be designed as a plague towards the enemy. Besides, mushrooms are known to be the unhealthy growths that sprout on living things (or on soils alone, at times).

    The Basilisks I already discussed about in the Archives. I shall not repeat.

    Want to name another? Remember, your and my says are both speculation, as no lore or writing says otherwise by the director.
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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:01 am

    Acidic_Cook wrote:
    However, remember that the mushrooms have to attachments: Elizabeth's Mushrooms and Pine Resin. Pine Resin is known to give electric qualities, known to be bane of dragons. Elizabeth Mushrooms are the only thing that resembles replenishment, which you must know is a sunlight miracle (attached to gwyn's daughter). Both aspects are tied towards the gods of the sun.


    You're really stretching that here IMO. Saying that because the Elizabeth Mushrooms heal you, they must be related to replenishment, which is related ultimately to Gwyn, is like saying because Asprin cures headaches it must be made by God. I think you're right that the arch trees are rotting, and that the presence of the mushrooms is a reflection of that rot, but in my mind it'd stop there.Just because the place is dying, doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't something beyond it that isn't worth protecting. In Dark Souls, arguably the whole world is rotting as the age of fire dies away.

    I agree, it's definitely all speculation, but a stretch is a stretch is a stretch.

    I would actually argue that the fact that the area is dying, supports my theory in a way. There's been some theorizing, actually it might even be hinted at in the game somewhere, I can't remember, that the dragons are only partially alive. That they have possess a different kind of life than people, and that that kind of life is directly connected to the earth. For example how the Everlasting Dragon is part dragon, part living stone, part tree. I'd argue that the Lords campaign against the dragons, and their essential genocide as a result, could really have been the cause of the earth dying directly, because of that connection.


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:08 am

    I would say the world is rotting away without a sun deity, but okay.

    It is not a stretch, it is an attachment. The mushrooms have relative relationships towards both magic (due to Oolacile) and light. The sunlight is a form of light, and the Oolacile people are known to manipulate light at will.

    The Mushrooms are known to have lightning qualities, which are tied towards the gods of sun, and a replenishing mushroom. The mushroom has the same power as a miracle of the sun. The Mushrooms are known to reside in a forsaken battleground, and the remains/standing of Oolacile.

    It's not a stretch. It's connection. I can see it there. Refusing that such relations do not exist is like saying that crimson is not the same as pink, when their connections is the tint of red.

    The mushrooms have connections to both the gods of sun and the lost magics of Oolacile. You can't tell me that such ties are none existent, because all of them have some connection, which leads towards familiarity and wonder as to "why such things are the same as another". The Mushrooms could have been made, or the Mushrooms could have helped make the gods of Sun fight the dragons. The origins is pure speculation. The connection, however, is not. It is speculation, but speculation with data in terms of familiarity and what all of them hold that is similar or the near same.

    Making stretches over lore... I say that Priscilla is the true Chosen Undead, due to her doll being in the same prison as the Chosen Undead afterwards. That's a stretch, if you would like to call it that.
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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:18 am

    I actually think that's less of a stretch than the other connection your making. It actually makes a lot of sense. The strange doll, as a kind of avatar of Priscilla, like maybe she's pulling some strings that we're unaware of.

    A lot of mushrooms in reality, where we live, have curative properties. A lot of plants do in general. I wouldn't say that connects them to anything. It's a similarity that they share, but I don't really see it as a connection. If anything I'd say they're the only curative item in the game that isn't in some way realistically connected to the gods. Pretty much everything else that heals you has some form of stated connection. The Divine Blessings, clearly with the word 'divine' have a connection. The bonfires are clearly related to Gwyn and the age of fire. Humanity, clearly is related to the Gods in some way, if you'd argue that man originally came from the gods. The shield Leeroy uses, I can't remember the name off the top of my head, is related to the WoW, which is a religious covenant that worships the gods. I think that's it that heals you, isn't it? The miracles, just by name, 'miracle,' are related to the gods, as well as the stat 'faith,' which clearly has similar connotations. All of those items heal you permanently though, while the mushroom does something a little different. It increases your max life temporarily, then drops it back down. It's more of a natural curative. Not as miraculous as the others, and more temporary, and corporeal. I think, by its very nature, it's separate from the others actually.

    I support your connection with Oolicile though. I think that's clearly relevant. If anything it's making me think a little more about the fate of Oolicile. They do all this stuff that could be construed as challenging the gods. They create all this magic, that's separate from the God's magic in nature. I'm speculating here, but they could have grown these mushrooms, as I think Elizabeth says she's always been a steward of Dusk, whose a member of the Oolicile royal family, and the mushrooms have these restorative properties that are different than those of the gods. Then they resurrect primeval man, Manus, to essentially study him. All this could be relevant to a kind of science vs. faith theme. Especially with the result of their resurrection of primeval man. They summon this ancient powerful entity, expecting to be able to subdue it, and it destroys their entire civilization. That's a statement.


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:36 am

    The Priscilla aspect was suppose to show a stretch of connection. Alright then, it seems that no matter what data I give, it seems the one with less data and vague connection is more informative than the connection that the mushrooms and Oolacile/Gods of Sun have?

    :bas:

    Your paragraph is clustered, so bear with me for what I say:

    A lot of mushrooms in reality, where we live, have curative properties. A lot of plants do in general. I wouldn't say that connects them to anything. It's a similarity that they share, but I don't really see it as a connection. If anything I'd say they're the only curative item in the game that isn't in some way realistically connected to the gods.

    Understand that relating things of myth to reality is like trying to argue that the First Flame acts as a normal bonfire, and you ignore the magic properties. Or perhaps say that the Stone Archtrees are nothing more than just plain old trees, despite their connection they show in myth? or perhaps say that the Blue Kite Shields symbol represents medicine or Hermes, instead of perhaps the two serpents that you interact with? We are arguing that two worlds function the same. The mushrooms have connections to both, due to familiarity and similarity and ability, purpose, and strength. Wondered why the mushrooms are so tough? The God of War and Gwyn are pretty strong too, and the God of War was said to have more respect for his Arm than Sunlight (Great Lightning Spear, paraphrasing).

    I hope that the connection between Dark Souls world and the structures and myth in our world are only seen as a portrait of the same name, yet the functions and structure of each world is known to have similarities... but they are both structured different, and the symbols that exist are different from those of our world. Not totally, as the symbols are familiar for good reason. However, are not the exact same.

    Pretty much everything else that heals you has some form of stated connection. The Divine Blessings, clearly with the word 'divine' have a connection. The bonfires are clearly related to Gwyn and the age of fire. Humanity, clearly is related to the Gods in some way, if you'd argue that man originally came from the gods. The shield Leeroy uses, I can't remember the name off the top of my head, is related to the WoW, which is a religious covenant that worships the gods. I think that's it that heals you, isn't it? The miracles, just by name, 'miracle,' are related to the gods, as well as the stat 'faith,' which clearly has similar connotations. All of those items heal you permanently though, while the mushroom does something a little different. It increases your max life temporarily, then drops it back down. It's more of a natural curative. Not as miraculous as the others, and more temporary, and corporeal. I think, by its very nature, it's separate from the others actually.

    So you want to play this now, huh?

    The Miracles, Leeroy's Shield, Divine Blessing, are all related to the Gods. Humanity and the Bonfire are connected to the First Flame. Both are not the same, however those of the Gods of Sun are related to the Bonfire. Remember, that the strongest soul known to have ever existed was Gwyn's, as his flame was the greatest of all Lords seen in the Cutscene.

    The First Flame is the aspect of the Undead. Humanity is tied to the Undead and the Bonfire, as Humanity is used to both FUEL the Bonfire's Flame and Gives Form for the Undead that is not hollow. The Bonfire is a product that is fueled by Humanity, and it is even more in strength with the fact of the Firekeeper, which is a being of Humanity that quivers under their bosom (Firekeepers are all known to be women...) The Bonfires heal undead, due to the fact that undead are REVIVED upon the Bonfire. Humanity and the Bonfires are connected to one another, as well as towards the Undead.

    The Divine Blessing, Healing Miracles, and Leeroy's Shield are connected towards the ideas of the Sun. The Shield, known as Sanctus Shield, has the same abilities as those of Replenishment. The Paladin, Leeroy, also has similar armour as those of the God's Undead (Darkmoon Knightess, Lautrec), yet also has ties towards the Way of White. The Way of White has ties towards the Gods of Suns, due to the Clerics (they hold replenishment), the pendant (tie towards possible god of war or perhaps pygmy, before description changed), outfit (similar towards those that guard the Twin Golden Boys, the Sentinels, which use both heal miracles and force, both tied towards the hammer Leeroy holds, as well as the miracles of the Way of White, given to by Petrus and Rhea). Divine Blessing is that of the Sunlight Goddess Gwynevre, so yes it is connected towards Replenishment.

    Although connections between First Flame and God of Sun are close, connections between Humanity/Bonfire and Miracles/Sunlight Healing are little to none, other than the healing portion. Familiarity is there, but not enough to be an actual connection towards both working together, other than the fact that both sides heal.

    Shall we play some more?
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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:44 am

    Acidic_Cook wrote:

    Shall we play some more?

    I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you Acidic, I'm just enjoying the debate.

    Didn't Gwyn essentially become a God? And isn't he also a proponent of the first flame and the age of fire? He used his own body to rekindle the flame, thus becoming undead. I think the first undead too, isn't he? I can't remember if that's stated or not. I'd say that connects them to the divine, if Gwyn is in fact, a god.

    Either way, even if I just accept what you're saying, that they're only connected to the undead, that still doesn't connect them to the mushrooms. If I'm arguing that the mushrooms are a product of the natural world, or, based on what I said about Oolicile, a kind of abomination of the natural world, the healing items that are connected to the flame, that are connected to the undead, would be products of the undead curse, which originates from the actions of the divine, and either way isn't a product of nature.


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:55 am

    I'm not having a pissing debate either. I am making an argument. You must understand, that I am not angry at you, nor disappointed. Annoyed? Possibly, but enjoyment overwhelms it.

    For Gwyn? There is no tie as to him being the first undead. However, due to his hollow state, it shows that he was, perhaps, an undead like you and I. His height size? Remember that much of the undead, such as Balders and Steel Knights, were large as well.

    He did use his own body to rekindle the flame, yet I debate that it is not fear, but a new enemy. Kaathe said that the First Flame died, yet he said that Gwyn relit it due to fear. Yet... the knights that went with him, transformed for a purpose.

    Let me explain.

    Match both Silver Knights and a Dragon Body together, and you shall see similarities. Both have the same hand structure, and near same leg and chest structure where the exo-skeletons are. The Stone Dragon is, in fact, the closest thing to an Everlasting Dragon. In the War, Everlasting Dragons and Stone Archtrees were the main targets, as the Intro showed... if it was Dragons in general, I am sure the Kalameet would have been included, as well as Seath. Both coming from the same time, but yet alive... and the intro said that the dragons were no more... it could be that they tied them to the dragons being everlasting, not dragons in general... as it seems kind of an oxymoron, seeing Seath on top of a pile of dead Everlastings

    :estus:

    The Silver knights and Dragon Body have the same hands. They have similar structure as well. The Everlasting had horns, and the Silver Knights have them too. Connection, as seen.

    Continue to the Black knights. The Silver Knights were there to hunt down Dragons; the Black knights, as the equipment shows, were made to hunt down Chaos Demons. The Chaos Demons come from lost Izalith, where a Flame Witch, the Witch of Izalith, was a lord of. Since she uses magic tied towards the flame, and the flame did die, perhaps there was a reason for her to recreate it. Again, Lost Izalith it tied towards the Stone Archtree. Same as the Everlasting. When Gwyn relit the flame, perhaps it was not for fear of the dark, but fear of a new enemy. Remember, that the Lord of Sunlight died as the Lord of Sunlight, and became the Lord of Cinder. The Lord of Sunlight duty was passed unto the firstborn (Great Lightning Spear), however it seems that perhaps the God failed at that, due to the spear showing signs of discard towards the Sunlight, and more towards Physicality.

    But he is not important; Gwyn is right now. The Black knights have twisted and formed, with their armour charred to black, and their horns twisted (similar to how the Chaos Demons are twisted in form). Gwyn was possibly undead, yet came to relight the flame due to a possible new enemy. Still, the similarities between Knight to Dragon Body, as well as Everlasting/Stone Archtrees to Chaos Demons, can be seen.

    You see? I connect things. It is what I do; the world does not randomly happen; random is myth. There is a reason, but not everything has to be connected all at once, but rather a web of lore.

    I see it as a game, because I enjoy the play. Let us play some more.
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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:10 am

    I don't dispute any of that. The game states directly that the Black Knights battled the Chaos Demons, and I think you're right that their armor reflects it. I think you also make a good point about the Silver Knights matching the dragons visually. It makes sense. A lot of times hunters will encompass traits of their quarry in their armor, like tribal peoples wearing tiger skins and such. It makes perfect sense. I actually read that when you first posted it in the Archives and agreed with it then. I know what you mean when you say your tying these things together, I just don't think you're right in tying the mushrooms restorative quality with sunlight. You can prove any outside point you want to illustrate how you're making connections in general, but none of it supports your position on the mushrooms. Yes, I'll give you that there is a similarity, but I stand by my belief that they're purposely different, and that's what gives them meaning. I don't know if you read my edit about Oolicile or not. I'll repost it.

    PlasticandRage wrote:I support your connection with Oolicile though. I
    think that's clearly relevant. If anything it's making me think a
    little more about the fate of Oolicile. They do all this stuff that
    could be construed as challenging the gods. They create all this magic,
    that's separate from the God's magic in nature. I'm speculating here,
    but they could have grown these mushrooms, as I think Elizabeth says
    she's always been a steward of Dusk, whose a member of the Oolicile
    royal family, and the mushrooms have these restorative properties that
    are different than those of the gods. Then they resurrect primeval man,
    Manus, to essentially study him. All this could be relevant to a kind of
    science vs. faith theme. Especially with the result of their
    resurrection of primeval man. They summon this ancient powerful entity,
    expecting to be able to subdue it, and it destroys their entire
    civilization. That's a statement.

    Accepting that the mushrooms were created by Oolicile would also explain why they show up in the Darkroot Garden in the present. Essentially in the ruins of old Oolicile.


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:16 am

    And that, Plastic, is one thing I have said: You have your opinions and thoughts, and my speculation is just that: Speculation. Solid, I try to be... but theory is all it is, until said otherwise by the maker.

    I do enjoy talking... I wish for some general talks. I don't want to post those Posts in the Search for Lore anymore, I feel like people dismiss it at times, or are ignorant of their existance. Might as well say it in present time, no? perhaps I will discover something else.

    But my standpoint is the connection between Mushrooms, Sunlight Qualities, and Oolacile to be what I see it. You can argue, and we can debate, but until I see something that says otherwise... Trust me, when I see the error to be true, I will happily fall and say "Aw Well". Trust me, I made a few mistakes, most being tied towards Chaos.

    :estus:

    And I admit to that. Like I said... I find connections. I still say, though, although Kirk may not be the Son of Chaos, to be the reason for the Large Flame Ember inside Demon Ruins... and not New Londo as it should be (or indicated by Blacksmith Vamos, if you prefer).

    is there anything you would like to talk about?
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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:23 am

    Acidic_Cook wrote:And that, Plastic, is one thing I have said: You have your opinions and thoughts, and my speculation is just that: Speculation. Solid, I try to be... but theory is all it is, until said otherwise by the maker.

    I think that's what we all love about it. Is that they don't tell us, so we're free to debate forever. That's a big part of what keeps me coming back.

    I'm yet to hear that whole Kirk theory. I've read the whole thing about him bringing Quelaan humanity, which I think is pretty awesome. Adds some great depth to the character, but I'm yet to read anything about him stealing the large flame ember.


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:26 am

    I wrote about it... in the Search for Lore, IIRC. But I made speculation of him being the Son of Chaos, BEFORE the Director said "Ceaseless Discharge is the Son of Chaos". I think that is the only thing that the Director has ever disproved of me.

    :estus:

    Most of what I have said seems to have grown more true with the arise of the DLC. Mostly Artorias being the Four Kings, the connection of Seath's Crystals and Curse Crystals, so on and so forth. Anyways...

    Yes, I argued about Kirk being the reason for the Large Flame Ember being taken in. Hold on, I'll find the post. Just posting something else at the moment.

    Anything Lore related you would like to ask, while you wait for it?
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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:32 am

    Acidic_Cook wrote:Mostly Artorias being the Four Kings,

    ^ Wait, what? You're arguing for Artorias being one of the kings?


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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:35 am

    Here are some quotes of the Old Research. OLD. This is not current, but some are still:

    Interesting. I though this ring speaked of possibly a Demon, such as the FIresage or such, as it would have been created by the Chaos Flame, like it was born from the former Witch of Izalith. But I realized that it might not be the case, as many of the Demons have no problem walking on Lava (even though they are not immune to fire). Perhaps our lovely friend, Kirk, was a Son of the Witch of Izalith. as far as I know, he is a he, as the armor states he is a he. He seems to be able to know the path threw Lost Izalith and the Demon Ruins, without the need of the Ring. Solaire and the Onion Knight could have also used that path as well, although the Onion Knight uses pyromancy such as Flash Sweat, as that pyromancy was created in his country, so it would explain how he went by. Solaire could have taken the same path as the player as well, threw the lava plains by using the tree roots to go by.

    But why would such a being as Kirk be going to Lost Izalith, if he was not the son of the Witch of Izalith. Solaire was searching for his own sun, and the Onion Knight was looking for adventure. I don't know of Kirk was hunting the player, but I think he was searching for something. Perhaps, being the son of the Witch of Izalith, he was finishing unfinished buisness, or was trying to fix the problems created by his mother. It seems that he easily left the Witch of Izalith and her domain easily, as the ring says that he just tossed the ring away, with ease. perhaps he had no need for it, and departed off. Joining the Darkwraiths as the Knight of Thorns. Usually, people just see him as an enemy in the game, as everything else. However, the Developers put him their for a reason, as they did with everything. He was not just for gameplay. He is part of the storyline, and he has his own history, and his armor, affection of covenant, his items, and other such things tell his story. Perhaps he was born burned, and was raised by his mother, the Witch of Izalith, and his sisters. The witch sisters, creating the Charred Ring for him, was meant for him to walk the plains of fire with ease. However, whatever happened, maybe departing from the Ruins after or during the procedure to create a Second Flame, he left, tossing his ring away, as he was done with his family, and moved on. He seems to later join the Darkwraiths, as a creature who hunts Humanity, in which case later on, once the area was flooded, and he became a warrior himself, he set off once again to the home he once lived in, maybe to clean lose ends created by his mother. A strange man, but an interesting man.

    I have stated this before, and I have stated this once more for clarification of the subject. This hypothesis has been claimed since the old forums, and seems to still hold strong today. In this, the Son of Chaos is speculated to be Kirk, the Knight of Thorns. Let me explain.

    Kirk is a Darkwraith defined by others for his Armour. As he wore it before joining the Chaos Covenant, it can be said that Kirk had it when he was still with Kaathe as a warrior of the dark. However, the knight's thorns are the art of the Chaos World itself. Such thorns were used by the usage of the Machetes, in which the Capra Demons use as their primary weapons, and the Exiled King also is armed with a Notched Whip, and is/was part of the Chaos Covenant as well. With this, it can be said that the Thorn qualities are the arts of which the people of Izalith, and later Lost Izalith, used as their primary physical weapons. The only other source of weaponry comes from the Arch trees and the Dead Demons across the world, as shown by the Bull and Tree demons. With this, Kirk was once in Izalith before it was consumed by the Chaos Flame.

    The second is the quality of the armour, as well as the texture of it. Such colours of the armour show it to be that of a burned quality, similar to that of the black knights. It can be said that such an armour was forged in Izalith at a time, during which it used the flames of Izalith for such an art. Even more so, the armour is that of a feminine quality, in which its form is that of a round and a... perfect form, for a lack of a term. Such qualities would be said for a feminine being, but Kirk is a male. Such as he was raised and born is a mostly female family, such qualities of Kirk would be similar as such. Although, due to the fact that the witches are more so defined as 'thorny' than rosy, as the witch of the swamp shows as such rudeness before a somewhat connection is made, Kirk would not have such feminine qualities such as Dusk or Rhea, but more so a dangerous one.

    The last is what he does for the Chaos Servants. As a Darkwraith is defined for taking humanity to prove as the Undead Warrior to be the new Dark Lord... it seems odd that he would join the Chaos Covenant, of all places. Even more so, as the Large Flame Ember, an ember that was once stored in New Londo (as hinted by the skeletal blacksmith, Vamos), and is now found in the Demon Ruins... the only being in which came from New Londo to Lost Izalith was the Darkwraith himself, Kirk. Even more so, it seems that he knows his way across the world, as it would take the knight some time to go across the plain (Solaire either walks with you from the long route, or goes threw the way of the shortcut too... the Onion Knight will be talked about in a later time). As Kirk might have used the shortcut, or took a different route all together, he seems to know the way across the plains. As he hunts for humanity, he might be obtaining humanity in order to serve the White Lady, in order to save her. His helmet and armour covers him entirely, which does not show the sores. However such sores could have been created from the thorns that he has now, or perhaps other means of being born male.

    As such, the evidence defines that Kirk is the Son of Chaos. Such speculation seems to put the reason and logic to him, while the other demons do not so, although the two, both the Firesage and the Ceaseless Discharge, gives hints of similarity. However it seems that such demons do not define it as such. Kirk has done too much to have just been a Chaos Servant, as those who join are usually bound to it from infestation (the exiled king has an egg for a head, covered by silk). Other than the flooding of New Londo, he could have left their before hand, as he could have left Izalith before it was engulfed by the Chaos, before the Witch of the Swamp left. It could explain why Kirk had readily left the ring, as he was either escaping the world with what he already knew, or he wanted to leave the world due to some... complications, with what the world of Izalith followed. He might have departed when the age of darkness first began, as might be the reason why he joined the Darkwraiths later on, to bring back the Age of Darkness once more. Of course, he might have come to some resolutions and revelations later on in his life.

    Like I said, of the OLD. Remember that.

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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

    Post by User on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:37 am

    One of them? Actually, I say it is all of them. i can get that information too, if you would like.

    Acidic_Cook wrote:22. Artorias, the Dark King

    A King as it may. The popular being he is, of all of the community. His obscurity and his mystery is what many love him for. His afflictions with Dark Souls, that many know about him, does with the forest covenant and the darkwraiths. As is, he was also one of the Four Knights of Gwyn, who were his most loyal subjects of man. They were granted power of Gwyn's soul for their loyalty, and were all followers of Gwyn. However, the rest of it is mostly a blur, as all of dark souls is mostly a blur. However, it is time, after a long strife of the Dark, that Artorias' subjection and effects of the Lore of Dark Souls be said. The mystery he is has been a problem for me, as the rest of the Darkwraiths and the Subjects are. However, it is time for him to 'shine', although soon to be Ironic by other people's eyes.

    But first, let us discuss the world around him. As we know, all four of the knights of Gwyn are defines by a beast of the world. The Dragonslayer was a Lion; Hawkeye the Bird; the Lord's Blade the Hornet; the Abysswalker being the Wolf. The Bird and Hornet knight have both been seen as obscure more than the other two, as Hawkeye's ring is found in a chest, while Cirian's Ring is found on her carcass, in the Grave of Artorias. Or the Identity, at least. Ornstein seems to be guarding the princess, or at least his soul in the body of a Golem or illusive figure. However the debate whether Ornstein is real when we fight him or not, as in the Real Knight of Leo, is subjective and questionable at best. The Abysswalker, however...

    Out of all three knights, he is the most mysterious and the most popular of the four. With no appearance to show, with his identity mostly being subjected by the weapons he wielded, his Wolf Ring, and the areas, both New Londo and the Forest, all characterize him to being a Knight of valor to all. However... it seems that he changed after time of his Lord's departure. We have no idea what Artorias was or is, nor who he is. Only who he was in the past. Everything about Artorias has been obscure and unknown. However, it seems that such a being has shown, after the Search for his Lore of the World.

    The History of the Abysswalker is told by the factor of many of his items. He was a Hunter of the Darkwraiths at a time, in which he used the divine sword he had, in which he was one of the greatest swordsman in terms of the Greatsword. However Divine his weapon was, it was based on not only faith but also mostly intelligence as well. Being a balanced sword, it can be said that he was both strong and fast, as well as an intelligent and faithful being than most of the other four Knights, as his Greatsword and Wolf Ring shows in contrast. However, after confronting with the Dark Beasts of the Abyss, which can easily be said to be the Primordial Serpents, the Glutton Dragons, it can be said that Artorias Changed to the Dark. As he went into the Abyss, he confronted the Beasts of the Abyss and joined their covenant, turning into a Darkwraith. When he joined, apparently he became cursed. As his intelligence and Faith decreased in terms of his second patch of his sword, the Cursed Sword of Artorias, it shows that its divine aspects have left it, as well as how great of a faithful and intelligent being he was before joining the covenant. Now it is hard to say what happened to Artorias, but he has left clues for others to see. The one main factor all noticed is the Forest Covenant. As they protect the grave of Artorias, which contains the Covenant of Artorias, the Covenant to be able to walk the Abyss, Artorias seemingly left a testing ground for all those to follow his domain, if a brave warrior was able to past the test of both faith, intelligence, strength, and speed.

    Now Artorias is one of the most liked beings of all of Dark Souls, as well as the Two golden guardians of the Princess and the Royal knight seen in the Asylum. However the fame of Artorias, as I have noticed, is false and seemingly perspective. Why? Because of the lack of information that shows. Artorias does not battle the Four Kings when he goes to the Abyss, but instead finds the Beast of the Abyss, which we all know are the primordial serpents. Interestingly enough, the four kings description is utterly defined by the Soul of the beings, or more properly the 'being'.

    "Soul of one of the Four Kings, who fell to Dark. A fragment of a Lord Souls discovered at the dawn of the Age of Fire.

    "Lord Gwyn recognized the foresight of these four great leaders of New Londo, and granted them their ranks and the fragments of a great soul. Although this is not a full Lord Soul, it can still satiate the Lord Vessel."

    Now this is interesting. Instead of getting the soul of the 'Four Kings', you get a soul from One of the four kings. It seems odd to see such things. Perhaps it was a typing error in terms of From? No, it was on purpose. So where did the other three go? Heh, well, let us look at the Golden Boys. Instead of getting two souls form both bosses, we get one soul from both. Why is it that we do not receive both? It is because that these two creatures of Gold absorbs the fallen comrades soul and uses it as its power. Could it be that the Four Kings killed the other three and absorbed it into one soul, owned by the creature known as the Four Kings? Yes. What also supports this, is that even though a total of Four of these Abyss Monsters can fight you at once, you can fight a total of 7 to 8 Kings in total in one fight with the creature. It could be that it lends the power of duplication similar to that of Pinwheel, which uses the Power of Dark in order to duplicate itself (in which seemingly questions the ability of Humanity as a Soul). Whatever the case may be, the Four Kings is not Kings as it is King. Their was Four Kings, but now their is One King, who acts as the four it seems.

    So who is this King? Artorias the Abysswalker? Yes. What monstrousity would lead to such an answer as the Great knight being a Dark and Corrupted King? Well for one his Cursed Weapon shows that he did downgrade and turn towards the Abyss as his new Ideals. Another fact is that the Creature depends on a Greatsword, in which he uses not only with the power of strength, but with speed as well. Even more so, the sword is also magical, in which his swords were made of magic damage with the physical as well. But these are Minor Supports. The main factor is that Gwyn chose four great leaders in order to Shepard and take care of humanity in New Londo while he is gone. He had four great leaders of Knights who were sub-commanders under Gwyn's wing, the Four Knights of the Animals. All four, the Lion, the Hornet, the Hawk, and the Wolf. As these four were selected to become the Four Kings to lead New Londo, Anor Londo was to be lead by the Gods of Gwyn with his absence, so Gwyn controlled the primary popular hubs of Lordran.

    But what about Ornstein? You battle him as he is guarding the Princess. First, I would like to say that the creature we know as Ornstein could be entirely NOT real. For one, as all Sentients and most Winged Demons, as well as a few Silver Knights, are indeed illusions, they still give inventory and souls as most creatures can do. The Sentient Giants can drop a Giant's Halberd, the Winged Demon the Demon Spear, and they all generate Souls upon defeat. What is to say that the Soul of Ornstein and Smough is not a conjuration of such factors. But what if they aren't? Then they could be golems similar to the Iron Giant of Sen's Fortress. As it was a giant Iron Armor with the Soul generated from the bones of a dragon, it could be said that they used the souls of both Ornstein and Smough to do so. However it might be more due to the Illusion than the Golem status, as the Four Kings (or 'Four King') would have probably hunted down and absorbed all of the three souls of the Four Kings of New Londo to become one, and killed them all off. In this case, whatever it may be, it can generally be seen that the Leo Knight is just another abstracted illusion as the rest, tricking the player to think it is real (which probably has done so successfully. It had for me).

    So back to Artorias. As he had turned to the Four Kings, it could be said that either he or followers, or probably former followers, of Artorias had created a testing ground for those to seemingly travel the Abyss, so that they can battle him and try to fulfill what the Glutton Dragon, Kaathe, has set aside for in order for his plans to succeed. That is general. However thanks to findings of a friend (which I have confirmed to be true from searching the internet), as well as the findings in game by me, I have found interesting connections towards the Abysswalker. One of them is Velka and the Crossbreed. In the Painted World, when you turn the wheel in the sewage of the Painted World, you would notice a statue of a Woman, wrapped around partially what appears to be a little girl, and both wearing hoods over them. It can be said that after adventuring that the little girl is the Crossbreed. The woman with the black marks on her, however, is the witch goddess, Velka; The Goddess of Sin. As we know, the two miracles associated with the Goddess are both seemingly 'dark' looking, in terms of being a breed of both black and purple. Similar to that of the Dark Hand, the Four Kings, and the Magic of Pinwheel. Seemingly Miracles similar to the Dark. A stretched Tieing as it is... but her statue is not only seen in the Painted World. Interestingly enough, the Fog Gate that leads to the Four Kings has two statues with the Fog Gate between, with the same design as the Statue of the Painted World. It seems that it ties that the Goddess of Sin uses the Dark for her miracles. With her being seen in New Londo VIA statue, it might be that Artorias follows similar premises towards her. As well, both New Londo and Velka have ties towards Carim. As items of Carim are seen in New Londo, as well as Ingward, as well as the Goddess of Sin being a Goddess worshiped in Carim, it can be said that the Dark World and Goddess have a similar background in these terms, which is interesting by itself. How they are tied other than these connections, however, is still hard to say.

    The other factors of interest, are two beings of Lordran. They are known as Petrus of Thorolund, and Shiva of the East. Petrus, as he states in a scripted dialogue, although removed from the in-game (but on the disc, if I read it correctly), is that when he is attacked, that he is a 'Wolf in sheep's clothing'. If this states that he was intended to hint affiliation towards the Abysswalker seems to be so, however why it was removed from the Dialogue seen be the player when the game was shipped is unknown. Possibly to remove the factors of Artorias to be affiliated with this, maybe, but his dialogue could be seen after some people had decrypted all the dialogues of the characters, both in game and removed. Shiva of the East, however, does not have deleted comments as such. The Eastern knight is armored with what I appears to be an Asian Dragon-Dog. Now as the Wolf, Artorias, works for the Glutton dragons, it could say that he works for such beings. Even more so, the weapon he favors is a Curved Greatsword, which is in general a fancy Greatsword meant for the lightly armored. It appears that he also favors similar fashions of weaponry as Artorias himself. Now whoever Shiva is to Artorias is unknown, although it can be said that he might know who Artorias was, or even is now. Although due to him having such a creature on his shoulder, he could be a hound working for the Stone Dragon, as he is later found in Blighttown, close to the Great Hollow. However the inventory he has indicates that he mostly scavenges in Blighttown, Sen's, and the Demon Ruins (except for the Demon's Spear, which is out of place). Whoever Shiva truly works for, it is clear that his affliction to Artorias is seen. These two are the only beings that have ties to Artorias.

    As it is, Dark Souls is above all a foggy game, in terms to the true Lore of Dark Souls. Even more so, many see it as a puzzle game, as the Lore is fractured into different pieces of information, scattered across the world. Artorias is an example of such things. It seems that Artorias is a good candidate to be the Four Kings, as his inventory, the Four kings, and other aspects support such things, and it makes sense as to what has happened to him. Although i have thought of him as being dead, it might be said otherwise as untrue as much as this. However more information supports this post than the supposed carcass where the Wolf Ring is. If the Four Kings is indeed Artorias the Abysswalker, it seems that New Londo can easily be said to be wrapped up in terms of Lore. IF it is true. The only factor, the new factor, that needs fulfillment is Velka, the Goddess of Sin.

    The search continues

    Thank you Emergence, Maneater Mildred, and Henkyona for some information of the two characters. Appreciate it guys. Never would of found the info without ya. That I say is true. Looking up removed dialogue or a mythical creature of a foreign land... would not think to do so in many cases. Thanks.

    I also would like to remind you, that one arm is missing; Artorias has a broken arm when faced. In the game, the player is able to give away the Soul of Artorias to the other knight. Might have been placed for a reason, however debatable due to it being an option.

    We can argue about that.

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    Re: Ash Lake Giant Skull

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