A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

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    Rynn
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    A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:17 am

    You know, I've long been of the opinion that this game was not balanced around the player imposed cap of level 120. I think I actually am fully capable of proving this statement though, and here is how I am going to prove that.

    First off, I'm going to prove that as you get closer to the meta of a game, all things balance out. I can do this by showing a decreased use for any of the stat improving pieces of gear that exist. This includes the mask of the father, mask of the mother, mask of the child, as well as the dusk crown.

    Due to the player imposed meta of 120, the value and consistency of PvP drops off after level 120 in all areas of the game environment. The forest covenant then remains as the only covenant where PvP consistently occurs.

    I hope to prove the following during this conversation.
    • The Family Masks would have had nearly no effects in the true meta of the game, as a helmet would provide a marked improvement to your defensive attributes.
    • The "Fat Roll" was not intended for PvP, as it is easy to avoid doing such at the true meta of the game.
    • Certain features and rings were designed to eventually be cast aside and never used again. Such as Elemental Weaponry and the Havels Ring.
    • Weapon Buffs are game changing, and the Developers expected these buffs to be in wide use by all players.


    So let's start, right?
    If your endurance is at 99, we have several critical weight capacities.

    34.7 = No Equipment items
    40.0 = Mask of the Father
    41.7 = RoFAP
    69.5 = DWGR
    80.0 = Mask of the Father + DWGR

    Meanwhile at level 120, the DWGR is often used to do what the end-game (meta) is allowing us to naturally do. With the mask of the father, We get precisely what the DWGR normally allows a level 120 character to do normally.
    The Dark Wood Grain Ring when used alone allows a user to equip more weight then any level 120 build usually has equipped at one time, or ever should have equipped for a large majority of builds.

    As The Ring of Favor And Protection does the job of both the Mask of the Father and the Mask of the Mother, the ring of favor and protection will be favored over the fathers mask. As the DWGR alone supplies more then enough weight for most builds, the mask of the father will not be in use in conjunction to the DWGR either.

    99 endurance is effectively the end of the reign of the Mask of The Father.

    The mask of the mother will still be reliably prevalant at level 713, however in Player Versus Player Combat, the Mask of the Mother is mathematically weaker then the Big Hat. However to explain this, I must first explain buffs.

    You see, at level 120, builds have to be designed around the buff for a buff to be used, however, at level 709-713, buffs will become an integral part of any character.

    Darkmoon Blade will add 500 magic damage to a weapon.
    CMW will add 441 magic damage to a weapon
    Sunlight Blade will add 430 Lightning Damage to a weapon.

    While sunlight blade is a better buff, it will take 3 attunement slots to get 3 casts, rather then 2 attunement slots for CMW, as such, the magic damage will be more likely to occur, especially since sorcery is overall considered more utilizable. While this will give a notable disadvantage to those that have the dusk crown equipped, it will also provide an additional 70 or more damage blocked by wearing the Big Hat instead of the mask of the mother. The mask of the mother only provides an additional 280 HP, and so within 4 hits (which you will survive with the high defense your level entails) the Big Hat has done everything the MoM did, and possibly more. The big hat will also effect all magical attacks in a similar manner.

    As such, a wise player will know that the MoM is in most situations weaker then a big hat. The Big Hat might similarly become a symbol of mini-maxing as a result in a world where we all went to level 705.

    Havels Ring is an item intended for lower level gameplay. Just like the masks, this ring's use is quickly outdated by bother equipment as you level, and you eventually will not be using it soon after starting to level. Please observe this example of a characters evolution to level 709.

    Level 29
    Level 51
    Level 76
    Level 120 "Endgame"
    208: Point of Diminishing Returns.
    429, all direct ombat stats maximized.
    Max level

    This character is not the best example, I needed to lower my eqip load by 1.5 pounds to show you the best example of how equipment becomes less OP as we level. But think about it, and maybe talk it out here. What we see as overpowered is no longer efficient at the true endgame. We only have ourselves to blame for a majority of the imbalances in this game!
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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:21 am

    Why BI over giants? It gets you 77 poise and from a quick glance more defences thus proving this concept even more. It especially gives more magic defence which is better vs CMW.


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:36 am

    I'm inclined to agree, but I'd stipulate that sl 80 is balanced as well. Some of the gear is still op, but the focus required to have an effective sl80 build makes the varying classes play like they shoulder. Pure casters are fragile but devastating, pure str or dex balance melee dps with hp, vit builds have hp but sack dps (excluding the obvious zweihander), and hybrids can both cast and melee and have hugely dangerous buffs but the are fragile and have a lower unbuffed dps than melee builds, and they generally cant kill in 1 cast either.


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:42 am

    In this particular case, I felt it would be beneficial to not have Giants armor on, in case someone had a massive case of TLDR and just decided Giants gear is overpowered as a result...

    When realy Giants Gear only offers about 4 extra points of defense due to diminishing returns.

    I'd really say at level 709 there would be more build versatility as a result of how there is no longer a best set.
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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:02 am

    My Big Hat is NOT the sign of extreme min/maxing!

    You take that back.

    On a serious note, if FROM actually intended for players to PvP at SL 713 they must have been off their rocker.

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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:56 pm

    It is my believe that From Software intended us to level up without an imposed level cap. This would result in PvP occuring naturally all though-out the levels.
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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by VinheimProfessor on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:22 pm

    I agree, which is why I continue leveling my characters past 120. I believe that From Software didn't balance the game for PVP because their focus was on PVE. Certain play styles are simply employed more effectively by certain players, and From tried to make sure that the game didn't have one favored class.


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:31 pm

    I somewhat disagree with that Vinheim, by NG ++++ you start needing to use buffs to do well, you start -needing- tons of things we don't currently make use of in every build honestly! I also feel that PvP is far more balanced then we give it credit for... the thing is, they balanced it around a belief we wouldn't cut ourself off at the knee and declare level 120 the level cap. With diminishing returns, I'd say it's fair to say they believed at least level 255 would be a normal final level, with possibly 400 (the point where all stats are 50, except for Vit and End, which are 99) being a level a lot of players stopped at due to there being nearly no point in continuing.

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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by lazhit1 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:17 pm

    So I'm obviously completely naive - theres a unwritten rule that pvp does not occur past lvl 120?
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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by RandelOolacile on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:00 am

    I would agree with you, Rynn if it wasn't such a task to get all the way to 700+. The pool of players would be so scarce that I would venture to say it would be completely inconsistent and die out.
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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Rynn on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:07 am

    lazhit1 wrote:So I'm obviously completely naive - theres a unwritten rule that pvp does not occur past lvl 120?
    Yes. PvP slowly dies out after level 120, because a majority of the player base has discovered others stick at 120 to PvP, they then join them, and others join them... etc.
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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:17 am

    Rynn wrote:
    lazhit1 wrote:So I'm obviously completely naive - theres a unwritten rule that pvp does not occur past lvl 120?
    Yes. PvP slowly dies out after level 120, because a majority of the player base has discovered others stick at 120 to PvP, they then join them, and others join them... etc.
    or the fact that it takes more and more effort in order to level, and then people stop at random SL's from 200-700, making the community completely spread out.

    that being said, I'm omw to making my toon max level. So far, 130.

    I'm also trying to platinum DkS.

    So once I get there, I'll know what you mean.


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by callipygias on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:57 am

    Rynn wrote:
    lazhit1 wrote:So I'm obviously completely naive - theres a unwritten rule that pvp does not occur past lvl 120?
    Yes.
    No.



    While most people are comfortable in their li'l 120 box you only need to concern yourself with it if you're going to invade. My main character is sl 424 (or so) and if I do a playthrough human I will get invaded many times. If I go to the Forest, Kiln, or Undead Burg I'll be invaded constantly.


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Gazman0169 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:58 am

    I do not agree that we are all meant to level up to the max, simply because most of us (not me mind) would not have the patience needed to do so, but I do buy into the notion that the Developers never intended us to remain at any one in particular level, and can easily see that by us doing so we are missing out on a lot of what the game has to offer. I would also argue that by us restricting ourselves to a SL120 PvP level, we are also actively stifling our own creativity, as there is only so much that can be done before the cap is reached, and as such I can guarantee that no matter how original we may consider our builds to be someone else would have already been there, seen it, and done it.

    Good post Rynn. "Umbasa!" cheers


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:03 am

    callipygias wrote:
    Rynn wrote:
    lazhit1 wrote:So I'm obviously completely naive - theres a unwritten rule that pvp does not occur past lvl 120?
    Yes.
    No.



    While most people are comfortable in their li'l 120 box you only need to concern yourself with it if you're going to invade. My main character is sl 424 (or so) and if I do a playthrough human I will get invaded many times. If I go to the Forest, Kiln, or Undead Burg I'll be invaded constantly.
    Thats becaues the forest has no level restrictions, and the kiln and burg are so popular that its probably lower level people invading you. What sort of souls are you getting for killing the invaders?


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by callipygias on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:27 am

    So my point was that PVP is still VERY active if you're a high soul level... I guess you're agreeing?

    I've only PVP'd (meaning gone to an area and hung around) a few times now. In those cases it's REALLY random; I'll get in the 200,000 to 300,000 range fairly often, but just as often it'll be between 50,000 and 100,000. When I do a playthrough human it's mostly much lower level invasions until you get to Anor Londo. In the Burg and Parish It'll be all but zero souls, but those are the most satisfying because they're ALL glitch invaders; it's nice knowing the tables were turned on them.


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:30 am

    My point was you're only getting pvp action because you're getting lower level invaders. You'll find very few people of your own level to duel. So in essence you arent really duelling as you have a massive advantage of 300 SLs on them.


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by callipygias on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:43 am

    Ha, and I just feel awful for the poor little invaders! Fact is that 90 to 100% of them are wearing a mask and ninja-flipping all over the place, so their HP and equip burden are probably about even with me since I don't wear heavy armor (rarely, at least) or enhance my hp.

    The only thing I REALLY have on them is that I can do whatever I want, I can go strength or dex or sorcery or Occult, whatever I want. During the actual fight that doesn't do much to help me. Diminishing returns don't make me much stronger than them if their stats are near 40 in whatever their build is focused on.


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:48 am

    Think more so of their stats being near 20. Cally not everyone is a griefer who invades, as well some are sort of forced to do that. Sometimes I invade at low levels, but I enter the world in powerful gear. If I see it is a new player, I switch over to my weaker gear and sort of practice with the player to give them a PvP experience in which they don't die in one hit, and can actually learn something. But still, because of the number of hosting griefers I have to invade in my powerful gear first, so you might be running into people like that. As well there are some invaders who wish to punish over powered Co-Op, which sort of ruins the experience for new players. It's not as simple as "Everyone else is evil." Try to look at the different situations and players as different situation and players. Yes there are a lot of griefers, but there are also a lot of people just playing the game and not trying to hurt others.

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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by callipygias on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:01 am

    I'm not getting 200,000 souls from guys with 20 Vitality. And while I haven't "dueled" much in the Kiln, Forest, or Burg, I've played enough Dark Souls to pretty well understand what kind of opponents I'm facing. Some very few of them are decent guys.

    "Everyone else is evil," huh?


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:07 am

    callipygias wrote: "In the Burg and Parish It'll be all but zero souls, but those are the most satisfying because they're ALL glitch invaders; it's nice knowing the tables were turned on them."

    They aren't all glitch invaders, that's what I'm getting at.

    People who are in the burg at lower levels typically have stats that are lower than 40, more so in the 20 endurance area or strength so they can wield certain weapons. Otherwise, you aren't fighting any form of griefer. Just people who invade at high level in the burg, who might even be duelists. So I just don't understand what point you are trying to get across, unless you are trying to demonize invaders which is a pretty bad thing to do. I hate gankers, but I don't demonize all of them. As easy as it is to do, it doesn't help anyone to settle in a prejudice against a group.
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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by swordiris on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:26 am

    Wouldn't Darkmoon be a good cov for max level since they invade lower? I'm trying to get My Velka toon to max level.

    And also, I agree with the OP. it was never supposed to end at 120. I think at max lvl we would see much different items being the norm.


    Last edited by swordiris on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:27 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:27 am

    Forest Hunter as well, since they have no level restrictions when invading.

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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by callipygias on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:31 am

    At sl 6 in the Burg they are all glitch invaders, tolvo. I've had one question mark in a hundred or so hours of co-op there, and him I messaged after he died, I apologized on the offhand chance he wasn't what I thought he was. He didn't respond, so who knows....

    The rest of my actual PVP experiences (Kiln, Burg, Forest) have been very positive. I especially enjoyed the Kiln. Didn't understand what all the complaining was about. Those duel-type-areas rarely get me less than 100,000... well, not rarely, but most of the time it's six figures I get. Those are the guys that should have a balanced build and who do quite well against me.


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    Re: A journey to level 713... what we seek the most is balance.

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:35 am

    Well the issue with those areas more so comes from the side of the red or blues, due to the number of ganks that occur there. As a host it is typically better. I guess we've just had too different of experiences at low levels, because while I've been doing more Co-Op at lower levels than high recently I've noticed quite a few invaders that were just wearing normal gear without powerful weapons. Of course every now and then I turn a corner and get BS'ed by a chaos rapier for all my health, but at low levels there are still a decent amount of invaders that aren't bad people. We just usually don't think about the good ones, we just focus on the negative ones.

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