Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

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    Terminus
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    Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Terminus on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:18 am

    What benefit is there to using the Sorcerer?

    I'm sure most people know that if you level all characters to the same level, that the Wanderer and Pyromancer have the most stats and the the Sorcerer has the least. Now the Wanderer and Pyro are just 1-2 points above most but the Sorcerer is very deficient.

    Now the stat that makes the difference here is Resistance. But I decided to just quickly make one character as a sorcerer and one as a wanderer which both start at level 3 and have the largest gap of total points at the same level. When unequiping all items, the sorcerer had only 12 on physical damage resistance and the wanderer had 22

    Now I am new with Dark Souls, but from playing Demon Souls I remember that soul level determined physical damage resistance on the character. Apparantly with Dark Souls it's not the soul level total but more of the overall stats the character has.


    Am I missing something here? I would assume the developers have some sort of purpose or advantage for the sorcerer.



    edit:
    After experimenting with characters I found that resistance attributes more points on physical defense than all the other stats


    Last edited by Terminus on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:25 am

    The advantage is at the start, you start with a spell and a catalyst...Now sure you can take an elevator ride and get both those things at the beginning, but those detrimental 2000 souls at the start could be used for leveling. Basically, when you first play it's not a bad idea. But after your first try, there really isn't a point.
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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:26 am

    It's good if you're going a specific build. The high Intelligence and Attunement right off the bat can give a toon a real good headstart.


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Terminus on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:35 am

    Unless you plan to keep the Sorcerer's Vitality and Endurance both at 8 than the Pyromancer could easily be leveled up having the second highest attunement and third highest intelligence, being at level 1 it has the most room for easy low cost spending to match the sorcerer.

    For nothing more than a Catalyst and Soul Arrow spell, the Sorcerer is at quite a disadvantage. Not just log run but even halfway through the game I could imagine sorcerers being at a distinct disadvantage when being invaded or invading due to the level ranges.


    edit:

    I think it would have been smarter to make the sorcerer a SL1 to handicap it for it's spell advantages early on instead of giving weakness on starting stats for it's very level. Would handicap it fairly for low level play without giving that long term disadvantage that basically no other class has later on (being we can all acquire equipment and spells later).
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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:12 am

    It depends on build.


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:08 am

    15 starting int means strong spells. The low end and vit are fine as you arent going to be in melee much. Its a good class, magic is simlpy OP in PvE.


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Carphil on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:12 am

    Its not pointless, it means the game will be easier for those who like magic and harder (like me) for those who like melee.

    I preffer bandit, killing everything with that axe its just amazing!


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Terminus on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:44 am

    DoughGuy wrote:15 starting int means strong spells. The low end and vit are fine as you arent going to be in melee much. Its a good class, magic is simlpy OP in PvE.

    Somewhere down the line the player will be blocking and rolling to dodge and that low endurance will come back to haunt the player, same with vitality. If the player never plans to level those up and cap themselves as a low level spellcaster than this class could serve as the strongest low level spellcaster. But a few points on endurance and vitality for higher levels and it passes the beginning pyromancer stats. Where to reach the same level as a pyromancer you can spend points on intelligence and attunement while having 10 extra points of phys defense.
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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:47 am

    The sorcerer is a niche build for a niche player archetype.
    I should know, because I am that player archetype
    Some players actually CAN play the game with 8 endurance and 8 vitality, this includes PvP. The sorcerer makes the best Sorcery Glass Cannon, the sorcerer also makes a reasonably good pyromancer if you plan to use sorcery too.

    The sorcerer is a good class, but it only fits a very specific niche of playstyles.

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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Terminus on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:15 am

    Rynn wrote:The sorcerer is a niche build for a niche player archetype.
    I should know, because I am that player archetype
    Some players actually CAN play the game with 8 endurance and 8 vitality, this includes PvP. The sorcerer makes the best Sorcery Glass Cannon, the sorcerer also makes a reasonably good pyromancer if you plan to use sorcery too.

    The sorcerer is a good class, but it only fits a very specific niche of playstyles.

    So you could really go through the entire game with 8 endurance and vitality?

    Up to what level have you done PvP with this?
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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:18 am

    Check out the assassins. They do SL 60 and above with 8 vit. Of course they use a few tricks.


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:21 am

    Terminus wrote:
    Rynn wrote:The sorcerer is a niche build for a niche player archetype.
    I should know, because I am that player archetype
    Some players actually CAN play the game with 8 endurance and 8 vitality, this includes PvP. The sorcerer makes the best Sorcery Glass Cannon, the sorcerer also makes a reasonably good pyromancer if you plan to use sorcery too.

    The sorcerer is a good class, but it only fits a very specific niche of playstyles.

    So you could really go through the entire game with 8 endurance and vitality?

    Up to what level have you done PvP with this?
    I played a sorcerer in the Forest Hunters to level 348, I only had 8 vitality until level 330, where I thought "might as well"

    A sorcerer was my first ever whatever, and I've never been too inclined to have high endurance or life.

    In fact, for my first 2 months on this forum, neither of those stats were ever above 20 on my builds!

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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by LD_Soze on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:09 am

    They are not useless. If you want a mage class they are the best. The 2 lvl difference between sorc and pyro is not enough to consider getting you attune and int up to par. I finished my first playthrough with a sorc and never leveled my end or vit, though I ran with RoFP Use magic or anchanted weapons and in most cases your melee damage is very high. I find them easier than a melee and fun in a different kind of blast everything kind of way. Ans CSS staggers so bosses can be much easier fighting from distance. This is PVE of course.
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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by RANT on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:12 am

    its really good for low levels and if you wanna be a pure caster then the sorcerer is the best.


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Doelker on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:12 am

    I love my sorceress glass cannon. I like to cap my toons at level 60 to keep cooping in almost everywhere. Anor Londo, 4 kings, Sif, Demon Ruins, The Kiln, ToG, Duke's.
    It is really fun and even if you have strong spells it is stell vey challenging since you have to avoid being hit.
    It helped me to improve my dodging and be more strategic when attacking so I don't deplete my endurance.
    Since then I have created a glass cannon Faith toon, and I'm working on a dex toon and strength toon. Low Vit but agile and strong.
    I like the idea better in relaying on dodging then in just being a punching bag that can take lots of hits.


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:18 am

    You're looking at it the wrong way: From wasn't preoccupied with balancing stat points for PvP builds when allocating starting classes stats. They were trying to balance them for PvE. Giving players a catalyst to start with, and a spell, is a huge advantage, so they have to give them harder stats to work with.

    Having said that, the Sorcerer actually has very good stats. 15 Att and Int is way more than any other class starts with, so if you plan on making a sorcerer build, there's no better class. You're just giving Res way too much importance in your appraisal of the class, and it's a virtually useless stat. Sorcerer has less stat points in stats it doesn't need.

    Also, if I remember correctly, 8 End is enough for 4 rolls. You shouldn't ever need more than that at once during a fight, since spell casting takes no endurance. All you need to do is roll back once and cast. If anything, the Sorcerer has more End than it needs!


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Federally on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:19 am

    Op, the sorcerer isn't useless. You're looking at it through a level capped PvP focused lense. For those of us who just want to make a sorcerer to go run through the game with its the obvious choice.

    Side note, pyro isn't the best class to start a build with. In fact Mugen has not once told me to start any build as a Pyro, always Warrior, Cleric or Bandit. So imo pyro is the worst starting class silly


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:21 am

    Federally wrote:Op, the sorcerer isn't useless. You're looking at it through a level capped PvP focused lense. For those of us who just want to make a sorcerer to go run through the game with its the obvious choice.

    Side note, pyro isn't the best class to start a build with. In fact Mugen has not once told me to start any build as a Pyro, always Warrior, Cleric or Bandit. So imo pyro is the worst starting class silly

    Or Wanderer. silly

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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:23 am

    Point, every class, except deprived, is the best starting class for many legitimate 120 builds.

    Bandit seems to be one of the most common starters, even for dex builds.

    For pve, anything will work. people beat the game naked with their bare hands at sl1, an 8 vit sorcerer is cake by comparison.


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Doelker on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:33 am

    Yes, OP my glass cannons are intended for PvE and Coop, not PvP. I don't have a PvP build cause I don't like it that much. So if you look at my builds through a PvP lens then they might look or feel unbalanced. But believe me, they are not.
    I don't bb glitch them either since I like to get my WSS as soon as posible to coop right away with starting armor, weapons or spells to keep the challenge.
    As I move from place to place Ievel up as requied.


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by Pesth on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:24 pm

    This calculator shows that when you have a max build, wich class will have the lowest lvl for that build.

    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/finder

    if you try a 50 int 28 att build with some vit end and dex
    sorcerer will really seen to be the best choice =)


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:45 pm

    On the subject, there is no better starting class for this build (http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=4359820653563620) than the Sorc.

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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by VinheimProfessor on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:09 pm

    The Sorcerer is the starting class that requires the most commitment from the player, IMHO. There is little point to starting as one unless you are going to create a pure caster. Otherwise, you could get more value just reinforcing Int and Att a few times on another class.

    I enjoy playing my sorcerer characters - the targeting system is boring, but I favor evasion and counters more than outright attacking, so my Dark Souls game clicked for me as soon as I stopped trying to build a powerful warrior.


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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by VinheimProfessor on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:12 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:You're looking at it the wrong way: From wasn't preoccupied with balancing stat points for PvP builds when allocating starting classes stats. They were trying to balance them for PvE. Giving players a catalyst to start with, and a spell, is a huge advantage, so they have to give them harder stats to work with.

    Having said that, the Sorcerer actually has very good stats. 15 Att and Int is way more than any other class starts with, so if you plan on making a sorcerer build, there's no better class. You're just giving Res way too much importance in your appraisal of the class, and it's a virtually useless stat. Sorcerer has less stat points in stats it doesn't need.

    Also, if I remember correctly, 8 End is enough for 4 rolls. You shouldn't ever need more than that at once during a fight, since spell casting takes no endurance. All you need to do is roll back once and cast. If anything, the Sorcerer has more End than it needs!

    I was actually thinking that a better limit for the use of spells should be an endurance cost and penalty to Endurance regeneration instead of limiting the use of each spell per se.
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    Re: Is the Sorcerer the most pointless class?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:26 am

    I think that would affect the flow of combat too much. I mean: soul arrows get 30 casts per attunment. So if we got rid of limited casts and had stamina penalties instead, that would be a very minor one. But Crystal Soul Spears get 4 per attunned slot. At 4 vs 30, CSS would get such a severe stamina impediment to compensate for the fact that you now essentially have unlimited casts, that it would make the spell virtually unusable in combat.

    Adding slight delays to stamina regeneration after casting spells wouldn't be a bad idea, though, I think. It would cut down on the ability to roll and cast indefinitely, and would add a layer of thoughtfulness to the maneuver.

    I do think Pyro should cost stamina to cast, though. All you need is 10 attunment, which many classes have at the start, and instantly you have access to maxed-out fire casting spells at no stat investment cost. Making pyro consume stamina wouldn't restrict access to pyro any more than it is now, but it would cut down on the spamming, and at least sort of tie it to a level. You wouldn't need high End to use it, but it would help.


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