I'm confused

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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:07 pm

    Everything has situation dependant pros and cons. Its the variance there that determines everythings relative effectiveness. Thats not a double standard, thats something performing above or below a standard because of mitigating factors.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by dancash1808 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:21 pm

    So how do you define the "standard" build. thats the only thing. If you gave me a build and asked me which worked better I think I would find it far easier than just being given the question of which is better. Its very difficult to isolate.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:37 pm

    I'm not defining a standard build. I'm not defining a standard at all. Thats for the individual to do.

    I'm aware that the dwgr will get you killed in places a regular roll wouldn't, and vice versa.

    I'm telling people to pick. Do you believe the regular rolls are better in most common situations, or not. If you do, the dwgr isn't OP, at least no more so than anything else worth using, because the users trade a better roll, for better movement speed. If you don't, it is, because it gives its users the best of everything.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by dancash1808 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:41 pm

    "With my build and due to practice I find the standard roll to be more effective However due to the standard roll being harder to use and slowing your movement rate DWGR provides double the benefit of havels ring if you wish to have the equivalent of less than 25% equip rate and is therefore more powerful than the other rings"
    This is only true for one of my builds but yeah, In most situations I would pick the DWGR but you can learn to use standard roll. and the fact that people have does not mean the alternate is not OP.


    Last edited by dancash1808 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by WyrmHero on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:46 pm

    I don't think fast roll is better than the flip. The flip has more or easier invincibility frames and more dodging distance. The ring lets you wear heavy armor while having good stats and be able to dodge better than the fast roll. So I'll pick DWGR for most of my builds, specially hybrids. The only ones that I have that use fast roll are the casters or special parry/riposte builds.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Quarik on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:48 pm

    The DWGR is massively OP. Flips have total invincibility through the animation, allowing for evasion of aoe spells and they make you roll a tiny bit farther than the regular roll. The ring also allows you to wear equipment that is twice as heavy as you would be able to normally. I've been experimenting with both fastrolls and flips and flips are always better. Medroll is even weaker than fast. None of that will stop me from using it to my advantage, because to me it's the most powerful ring in the game, barring the Wolf Ring at low soul levels.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:51 pm

    @Dan I Never said it did. I've not once mentioned my own view on it in this thread.

    All I said, was that its either OP, or it isn't, and specified reasonable terms for allowing others to formulate a decision.

    I can and do use both the dwgr and the mid roll, on the same build actually. Most of the time its the dwgr so I can avoid wog or ugs spam in ganks, but I use both the stamina regen ring and the hornets ring depending on what I'm dealing with.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:53 pm

    Well, Quarik took a side. That's what you wanted, right?

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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:54 pm

    silly Problem solved.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:00 pm

    Essentially, yes. I in no way require people to voice they're opinion. I'm just trying to put it in perspective for people.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:00 pm

    Ooh....let's make it two people to take a side.

    If it's at your disposal it's fair. There's no such thing as cheap or "OP" equipment because in battle victory is the only measure of success or failure and whoever is left standing did the right thing. Since games like this are meant to simulate battle the same rules apply.

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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Mustaklaki on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:13 pm

    With the Flip ring, you lose all penalties the developers intended to occur from having the best armor in the game and the best poise. It takes a tank class and mixes it to make it more powerful than an agile "rogue" class. An incredibly stupid idea.

    It's recovery time is faster after making a mistake: almost instant. It rewards the players for making stupid decisions. Oh you missed your hit with long recovery time? Well just flip out of the way and they won't get a single hit of damage.

    It's also sad that a lot of the "best players" on this game are just people who flip with the ring and use a roll attack and flip away. You watch any high level PvP that's all it is.

    Only reason anyone would think the normal fastroll would be better is because you can rollstab with it easier, but just barely. That extremely small advantage does not balance out the extreme benefits from using the ring. I used to use the ring and then I don't anymore, and now I realize why everybody wants the ring to be taken out of the game. I'm tired of fighting clones in Full giants, a Greatsword and a flip ring with hornets.
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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Quarik on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:17 pm

    I use DWGR and Hornet's frequently... I wouldn't call my build a clone though.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by WyrmHero on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:21 pm

    @Gyarados I like that explanation. FROM clearly didn't focus on balancing the PvP.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Mustaklaki on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:48 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:@Gyarados I like that explanation. FROM clearly didn't focus on balancing the PvP.

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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by dancash1808 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:55 pm

    silly and also I think you can have something that is situationally OP and therefore can be OP and not.
    EG TWoP If its 1 on 1 and WoG is not involved, not OP if you have a BS fishing second opponent or they have 6+ casts of WoG its nasty as hell.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Carphil on Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:16 pm

    What pisses me off is that everyone complains about this ring. But hey wait, they are using this ring right now! And more! They even say that without this ring they are nothing! How can someone complain about a thing that they rely on like this? I mean seriously, I'll make a poll just a minute.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by dancash1808 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:37 pm

    Erm, I would rather it was not in the game but I'm sure as hell using it since it is xD just cause you wish something is not around does not mean it is not useful as hell.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Xacktastic on Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:53 pm

    I thoroughly enjoy the DWGR no matter what the stigma around it dictates. It is honestly used a lot because it is very good. That being said, it does get annoying when every single person uses one.
    However, most of the builds I like to make use it. I won't let general distaste and popularity prevent me from using it when I feel it's warranted.
    Though, I never use Giants or Havel's. I usually stick with Black Iron. It's my favorite armor.


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Carphil on Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:57 pm

    Xacktastic wrote:
    Though, I never use Giants or Havel's. I usually stick with Black Iron. It's my favorite armor.

    Well that is the point. Its not about giants or havels, its about Heavy armor in general. Black Iron is so heavy as havels, is has less poise and more defense (plus much more cooler IMO), but neither Havel nor Tarkus ninja flip around


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Quarik on Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:39 am

    Have you seen Havel's knight? He does kind of dance around...


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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by Spurgun on Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:24 am

    The flip is longer, you notice this when going back to the asylum, i once had to equip the DWGR to make the "jump" since the fast roll was to short. This makes roll-BS easier since you can be further away from them when you do it.
    Th flip also takes longer, but it is barely noticable. And the flip has a lot more invincibility frames.
    IMO the flip is better than the fast roll. Probably because the ring was meant for fast characters that wanted a better roll. I think that the <50% was a mistake.
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    Re: I'm confused

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:47 am

    Forum I assume in the OP you are talking about the previous convo's where Amos and I were talking about med rol. The fault in your logic is you do not seem to be considering where the opinion of the other rolls were before we "talked them up". We were explaining that the med roll is viable in pvp, and that the fast roll is also viable. Not that they were better than the flip ring, that they were a viable alternative and could be used. The flip ring is obviously better, you cannot disagree with that. But the other rolls can be used, fast roll with little disadvantage with the roll but a large armour disadvantage, med roll with no armour disadvantage but a larger roll disadvantage.


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