Piracy: good or bad?

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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by bmurn on Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:14 pm

    Xacktastic wrote:I disagree. I don;t think this is relevant.
    Pirating would be synonymous to:
    "Your friend bought a new car. He offers to let you borrow it for a while, since you were considering buying one. If in a week, you decide you don't like it, you give it back to your friend. Nothing has changed. If you do like it, you buy it. And there, the company makes that money it wouldn't have, because a customer shared his product. You probably wouldn't have bought the car without having it first, since it's an investment."
    Thats the correct analogy.

    I think this metaphor is off as well. Your friend has the right to lend you the car. The car dealer is selling real property that they relinquish all rights to upon sale (ignoring liens, loans, etc.). Pirating is using something without the right to use it. The developer/distributor, whomever it is, did not give you the right to use the content. No one who has the rights to the content has given the pirating party the right to use temporarily, or permanently.

    Again, I also believe that if pirating was not an option people may be inclined to spend their money in different ways. The act of pirating in effect hurts the content developers/owners in that it provide people a way to circumvent the system that they are using to distribute their content. The system that is put in place to allow them to receive the compensation for their content.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Xacktastic on Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:23 pm

    I still believe they receive much more money based on people pirating and sharing then if it wasn't a thing.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:45 pm

    Actually, the law is against its download and storage, not its use.

    I dispute your claim that piracy harms developers. It can be harmful, but it also exposes people to the media who wouldn't have been otherwise, effectively advertising the developer and their content. If my friend hadn't pirated the music he did, thus allowing the pair of us to hear it, we wouldn't have gone to their consert or bought the cds. His piracy was profitable to the band whos music he pirated.

    Also, the car metaphor is flawed in the context you've used it in, as piracy is copying, not stealing. The original is still there.

    The developers are entitled to compensation for their work, but to expect gamers to make $60 purchases without first being allowed to test the game is highly unreasonable. Its like not allowing someone to test drive a vehicle. Even then, the hour demo many developers don't even provide is hardly indicative of the overall quality of the product, only extended time and use can test that. Just as the developers are entitled to compensation for their product, consumers are entitled to at the very least a hands on experience with the product to make a properly informed decision on its purchase. Piracy is, at the moment, the best way to get that experience, as nearly everything is on the internet waiting to be downloaded without costing money.

    Perhaps if developers put more effort in creating and distributing hour or 2 hour long demos, 2 full listens through an album ect. to allow the hands on experience, piracy would decline.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Xacktastic on Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:56 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Actually, the law is against its download and storage, not its use.

    I dispute your claim that piracy harms developers. It can be harmful, but it also exposes people to the media who wouldn't have been otherwise, effectively advertising the developer and their content. If my friend hadn't pirated the music he did, thus allowing the pair of us to hear it, we wouldn't have gone to their consert or bought the cds. His piracy was profitable to the band whos music he pirated.

    Also, the car metaphor is flawed in the context you've used it in, as piracy is copying, not stealing. The original is still there.

    The developers are entitled to compensation for their work, but to expect gamers to make $60 purchases without first being allowed to test the game is highly unreasonable. Its like not allowing someone to test drive a vehicle. Even then, the hour demo many developers don't even provide is hardly indicative of the overall quality of the product, only extended time and use can test that. Just as the developers are entitled to compensation for their product, consumers are entitled to at the very least a hands on experience with the product to make a properly informed decision on its purchase. Piracy is, at the moment, the best way to get that experience, as nearly everything is on the internet waiting to be downloaded without costing money.

    Perhaps if developers put more effort in creating and distributing hour or 2 hour long demos, 2 full listens through an album ect. to allow the hands on experience, piracy would decline.

    I completely agree with this.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Azran on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:02 am

    Yes. So many publishers nowadays (be it games or music) want you to shell out $60 based on the opinion of reviews in their payroll. silly Would it hurt to let me try the game for an hour or two, instead of giving me a beta version as a "demo"? Or let me listen to the entire soundtrack before considering a purchase?

    Most of the time, when I buy something, it's because those requests were fulfilled.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by BindMind on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:07 am

    Pirating is a horrid, despicable thing to do.

    Except when I do it. :heart:


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:39 am

    bmurn wrote:A lot of interesting points here. As always nothing is black and white, but my mind definitely likes to think in those terms, although my actions do not always follow my thinking.

    The boycott concept is interesting. I think that if you are going to boycott, pirating the game is an easy out. As many other mentioned the playing of the game may benefit the developer in many way besides monetarily. To me on games it is fairly simple if you want to play the game, then pay for the game. If it is too expensive, don't pay and don't play. If they are a bad developer that release incomplete games, the only way they will get the message is if no one is playing/buying the game. Support the games you like by purchasing them.

    I don't think it should matter what size the developer is or what their practices are. The bottom line is they are selling something that they have the rights to and by pirating it people are gaining possession of that content/product without paying. I think many rationilizations can be made for pirating, but in the end it is stealing.

    I think the argument of only doing it in the case of things you would not normally buy is also a rationilization. You are getting the benefits of some one elses work for free. They did not intend for you to have it for free. Maybe if you could not pirate anything you would be inclined to purchase some of those things that you currently feel you would not buy. I think there is some validity to the concept that knowing you can pirate things changes your perspective on what is worth purchasing.

    Final point - for those that state it does not consume any physical goods, so therefore does not really hurt the companies that are pirated I look at it this way. Everyone has a set amount of money they can spend on these things. These companies and individuals are competing for that set pool of money. Pirating breaks that system. Maybe a game is better, but easier to pirate, so that developer gets screwed.

    Long live capitalism! I am now off to go sneak by video camera into a theatre so I can upload the movie to the internet, while listening to music I obtained from Napster and eating some steak that fell off the back of a truck.



    This sums up my views on piracy pretty well. Piracy can have its benefits, but it is also harmful. I'm more inclined to turn a blind eye to someone Pirating say, an expansion to the sims. But pirating an indie developers game and then reselling it at a lower price, which is very common actually, that is despicable. I understand the concept of pirating to test a product out, but most just use it as a cop out. There are a good deal of people who do pirate rather than purchase just because it is free, they would pay if they have to, but they don't so they don't. Essentially the response of gamers to the Humble Indie Bundle sums up my view of it. Piracy doesn't have to be bad, but the majority of gamers have proven they can't be responsible and respectful about it.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Extertionist on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:14 am

    I personally think it kicks *** as my family does pirate quite a bit (our apple tv has thousands of songs and hundreds of movies/shows). I will say this in my defense though, if I like it enough I will buy it to support whoever made it, like Avengers, pirated it then saw it in theaters, same with prometheus and many other films. As with games, I personally think $60 is to steep a lot of the time so if there's something like Skyrim and it's on the pc I'll pirate a copy then buy it when it's around $40.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Digitalyzed on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:51 am

    Sorry if this point of mine has already been said, but I'm always rushed in the mornings so I can't read the whole 3 pages of thread. I believe piracy of a game to see what it's like before buying (Basically a demo), should be acceptable, as long as you intent to buy the game if you like it and delete it if you do not. Unfortunately this is too much effort for many people, and so in practice it is heavily flawed. I also believe that after a game has been out for a certain amount of time (I'm talking many months up to years), piracy of the game is okay, due to the fact that the companies larger profits were made from the initial launch, and would no longer affect them quite as badly. That's just my 2 cents.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by bmurn on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:59 am

    I guess for me it gets down to this one simple point:

    If you pirate content you support terrorism.




    Just kidding.

    But I do boil it down to this, legal definitions aside:

    If someone creates something, that they have the rights to, and you take it without their permission you are stealing.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Doelker on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:23 am

    What about when you get your copy and becuase of the quality of the disc and console it starts to break from the center of ghe disk to the edge? You already bought the license so you should be able to make a back up for your own use.
    But no... You have to buy it again in full retail price if you want to play it. So you already pqid them twice for a faulty product that guess what... It broke again in the same way.
    I don't know if that example could be valid so you could have a back up qnd use that in order to protect your investment.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by bmurn on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:26 am

    I agree with your right to a replacement game in that case and the vendor should as well. I am assuming you created a stink with the vendor, the maker and all involved in an effort to get it replaced?
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Doelker on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:48 pm

    Actually they said that the warranty with them was only for 1 month and only if it was a fabrication flaw. I don't know how to call it. Anyway, they argumented that the crack on my disk was from overuse... Well yeah right. The bottom line is that nobody cares or take responsability for that ki d of issues and your only option available if you want to keep playing is to buy it again. But when the second time happens the same way... Then F it... Somebody should be responsable for it. Idk, they could make some sort of code or drm that lets you do a backup from your games and that can only be played of your console. If you get to change your console, you still have your original copy and that way you keep playing.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by bmurn on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:54 pm

    I agree with you. For the price paid, the game should effectively work indefinitely. Sorry about your game.

    I think they are actually closing in on coding games to consoles. Which may be part of a cloud gaming model, stores all your data and games on their servers. Only downside with what I have heard is coming, is that the games that are coded to your console may not be able to be played on other consoles, which would be annoying, meaning a friend could not borrow a game. I think that is starting to take things too far. But, this is a whole topic in and of itself.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Doelker on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:07 pm

    ^ That's sounds like a good idea, but only if they do it right and only lock the digital copy to the console or not even the console, because consoles break, but with your gamertag or psn name. You would always be save to know that you can download a digital copy from the hard capy that you already bought. Kind of the download history from the marketplace or psn store. If you deleted the game for any reasson or had to replace the console you still have the chance to download any previous purchase you did.

    But just locking digital or hard copies to one console onlu is just plain stupid. Nowadays we get to experience the RROD or the YLOD. Consoles break, they always have and they always will. Now imagine having to buy not only a new console but all your games again because of a major hardware malfunction...


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by BindMind on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:29 pm

    Piracy, as a whole, is bad. That is my belief.

    No matter how you look at it, piracy is stealing, and that is an indisputable fact. However, that being said, it is not necessarily bad on all accounts.

    Let me put it in perspective; you're shopping at a grocery store, and there is some bulk candy you really want to try, but you can't bring yourself to pay for it. So you take a sample. You just stole a piece of candy, but will the grocery store care? Probably, but it really didn't effect things in the long run. No harm done, and everything is bright in the world.

    Here's another example. You're shopping at that same grocery store, and you see that they are selling filet minon, high grade steak. Your mouth waters and you decide, "to hell with this", and you shove the steaks under your shirt. You just stole a $30 steak. That's a bad thing you did, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Piracy works in much the same way. It works as a "try before you buy" system, but in reality, it also robs creators of their profits. Piracy is stealing, and it is within ourselves to control our urges and resist the temptation to just snag everything for free.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:31 pm

    For the 10000000000000000th time PIRACY IS NOT THEFT. Its piracy. The illegal download and storage of media without a licence to do so. You're copying something, not stealing it.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by BindMind on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:36 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:For the 10000000000000000th time PIRACY IS NOT THEFT. Its piracy. The illegal download and storage of media without a licence to do so. You're copying something, not stealing it.

    Taken straight from the dictionary:


    piratingpresent participle of pi·rate (Verb)

    Verb:


    • Rob or plunder (a ship).
    • Use or reproduce (another's work) for profit without permission, usually in contravention of patent or copyright.




    Pirating is a meager form of theft. And, like theft, it has varying degrees of severity.





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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by bmurn on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:40 pm

    Also from the dictionary:


    steal

     /stil/ Show Spe[steel] Show IPA ,verb, stole, sto·len, steal·ing, noun

    verb (used with object)

    1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by
    force: A pickpocket stole his watch.

    2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.



    The legal definition of piracy may relate to downloading and storage, but the generally accepted general of stealing would encompass the act of piracy.













    Last edited by bmurn on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:42 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : updated crazy font colors so those who may be color blind, or posess the standard human range of sight could actually read the post)
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:45 pm

    Well if you're pirating media then selling the media you didn't create, yeah, you suck. Thats deliberately harming the industry.

    @bmurn, Take was the key word. you take nothing. Its a copy created by your computer. not taking, not stealing.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by BindMind on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:47 pm

    Sure, you're not taking a physical object, but if you take the digital content, use it, and never pay for it, then that is stealing.

    And technically you are taking something... Digitally.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:53 pm

    No, technically you're taking nothing. Your computer is copying something from the internet. Its still illegal, depending on the situation, but its not theft.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by BindMind on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:59 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:No, technically you're taking nothing. Your computer is copying something from the internet. Its still illegal, depending on the situation, but its not theft.

    If it's legal it's not piracy.

    If it's illegal, it's piracy and theft in the eyes of the law and in the definition of piracy and theft.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by bmurn on Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:05 pm

    But you are taking something. You are taking a copy, that you do not have the right to take. I think that just because you don't take the original does not mean you are not taking something.
    I think we are getting caught up in symantics here. I look at Stealing in a high level view, like stealing time from some one, stealing ideas, etc. All bad.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:11 pm

    Piracy and theft are different crimes. Thats my point. They're not the same thing. They have different penalties. If I download every game ever made its not grand theft. If I steal every game ever made it is.

    As an example of legaly downloading games, (not piracy, you're right)I own a game boy advance and pokemon saphire. Unless the laws have changed without my knowledge, downloading a gba emulater and pokemon saphire rom are legal because I already own the material.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

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