Piracy: good or bad?

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    Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:45 pm

    What are your views on piracy? I personally think that there's nothing wrong with it, and if there is it's not as bad as video game publishers would like you to believe.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:00 pm

    In doses, I don't see a problem with it. If your product is getting out there even through improper channels, the word and its reputation is still being spread, which, in the long run, I believe does more for the creators than if their stuff just went ignored.

    Rampant piracy, however, can be problematic.

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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:03 pm

    I think piracy is the weakway out if one is trying to makr a point in regards to a boycot. Other than that it is bad and good, hurting ittler companies and players, but doing little to big companies.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:09 pm

    I think there's going to be different viewpoints based on a number of factors. Artists for instance often only desire to have someone appreciate what they've done and in this case piracy is not really an issue as it accomplishes the originally sought after goal. If the intent of the work was solely for profit then piracy falls squarely in the lap of theft and is no better than shoplifting. Back when it first became rampant I recall a lot of advertisements asking if you'd steal the same CD from a store? No? Why download it for free then? Games, movies, music, etc. all can fit here too by the way. Most works fall somewhere in the middle where the artist wants to share AND profit so piracy becomes a gray area as it accomplishes only part of the original goal. Like any theft it really depends on the victim's stance. For instance, a grocer might forgive a $2 loaf of bread taken by someone he knows is homeless and hungry while still choosing to prosecute the snobby teen who took a $0.69 pack of gum. Metallica and Judas Priest have gone on record as VERY upset about piracy so taking their works is obvious theft. I'm at the other end of the spectrum (talent and philosophically) and offer a good contrast. I have written a few pieces for guitar which some people have expressed to like. I have posted these online before with a disclaimer in no uncertain terms that I don't care if you download my music and listen all you want. My goal is for someone to enjoy it and that's it so there's no such thing as stealing music from me. My stance is rare however, so in most cases piracy is obvious theft.

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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:11 pm

    I regularly down load games and music I haven't paid for and stream movies online that aren't even a few months old. Take from that what you will really.

    Piracy may reduce their profit slightly, but considering most of the time the product will be making millions anyway it's sort of pathetic they complain about it.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:30 pm

    To quote a dev I don't remember the name of, "A pirated copy isn't a lost sale, they never intended to buy the game in the first place."

    That said, I have no real opinion on the subject.

    If I couldn't download music or movies for free, I simply wouldn't watch or listen to them. I don't care enough to buy either. Pirateing games is qualitativly no different than buying them used from a second hand retailer, the developers don't see the money either way, and downloading it saves 20 bucks. But again, were it not an option, I simply wouldn't play the games I was iffy about buying, which might actually harm the developer, because if I liked the game I got free, I buy the next thing they do new so they can continue to create games I enjoy.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:34 pm

    Did you know there were people who pirated the humble Indie bundle? That's the sort of piracy I don't tolerate.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:36 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Did you know there were people who pirated the humble Indie bundle? That's the sort of piracy I don't tolerate.

    Yeah, that I can't approve of.

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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:41 pm

    Forum's point hits where a lot of you went with this discussion. Does it harm the entity? The developer's argument has an inherent fallacy in comparisons to other theft. If you never intended to eat a blueberry pie today is it stealing to take someone else's cooling on a window sill? Your intent to spend money is not inherently related to the action of theft. An opportunity was presented for you to gain from someone else's work and is therefore still theft.

    Counter argument to this one however is that in the pie example you also remove the owner's ability to gain from that pie. Theft of media does not present this dilemna as your theft does not prevent others from gaining from it's existence.

    Counter argument to this though......the intent of the work is to maximize profit. This is not done necessarily by a static dollar amount. Some entities would define this as dollars per person using the media/service etc. By not paying for the media you lower the ratio against their favor, thereby causing a theoretical lowering of profit to person.

    Counter argument to that one.....that's just a way to visualize the goal of profit mathematically and does not inherently relate to direct harm against the wronged entity. In other words, we're still back wondering if the person was hurt or not.

    Then of course there's the possibility Forum mentioned of actually doing GOOD for the entity with pirating. That is actually possible so this is certainly not a cut and dry topic silly

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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:44 pm

    The nmakers of the humble Indie bundle lost a lot of money from the piracy abd 1 cent purchasers actually, because their servers were used for transfers and the cost of the free transactions actually cost them around 30,000 dollars. They were a bunch of por Indie developers and it actually bankrupt a few. So yeah, it can hurt. Just not the big companies.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:01 pm

    And personal freedom hurts government function. As with most everything, extreme actions hurt everybody.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Doelker on Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:08 pm

    That's a dangerous topic. I would say that if you really really like something, whatever that is, then you should support the creator by getting the retail version of their product.

    I do think that there are people that want to sell you garbage for a great ammount of money, knowing that their product is way below any level of quality... I say to them F. U. I'm not giving you my money!!!


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:24 pm

    I really like dark souls, yet my copy is pre owned Shrug

    I did buy demon's souls new, though then again only because it was only £13


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by bloodpixel on Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:47 pm

    Batman Asylum sure doesn't like it.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Doelker on Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:08 pm

    ^^ Serious: I don't have anything against buying preowned copies. In some point, the publisher already received the money for that game.
    It's like when you sell your car, the car manufacturer had received its money for it already.

    Not all of us can purchase all the games new at release date.

    My example goes to AC Revelations, they want you to pay full price for a game that has nothing, absolutely nothing new on it. It is just a remake of the last two. To me that's bull crap and doesn't deserve my money. They are not interested in giving you a fine game or product, they are just milking your money, and imo that's unacceptable.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Azran on Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:41 pm

    I think piracy is benign in the following case:

    A person illegaly downloads a game, and then proceeds to buy it. How many demos out there are incomplete, beta-version builds of the game, after all?

    The thing I can't stand, is when a game is just $5, or $10, and people pirate it like crazy. I mean, it's cheap as hell. Don't be an asz.

    Also, some people have said in the past that it's a way of boycotting. For example, against EA and Capcom DLC policies, where the game is sold incomplete on purpose. I don't know what to think about this, though. silly


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:11 pm

    EA is satan. Seriously. If EA died tomorrow, I'd happily accept the temporary collapse of 30-40% of the industry that would follow.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:29 pm

    The way EA's stocks are going, total collapse is not out of the question.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by bmurn on Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:58 pm

    A lot of interesting points here. As always nothing is black and white, but my mind definitely likes to think in those terms, although my actions do not always follow my thinking.

    The boycott concept is interesting. I think that if you are going to boycott, pirating the game is an easy out. As many other mentioned the playing of the game may benefit the developer in many way besides monetarily. To me on games it is fairly simple if you want to play the game, then pay for the game. If it is too expensive, don't pay and don't play. If they are a bad developer that release incomplete games, the only way they will get the message is if no one is playing/buying the game. Support the games you like by purchasing them.

    I don't think it should matter what size the developer is or what their practices are. The bottom line is they are selling something that they have the rights to and by pirating it people are gaining possession of that content/product without paying. I think many rationilizations can be made for pirating, but in the end it is stealing.

    I think the argument of only doing it in the case of things you would not normally buy is also a rationilization. You are getting the benefits of some one elses work for free. They did not intend for you to have it for free. Maybe if you could not pirate anything you would be inclined to purchase some of those things that you currently feel you would not buy. I think there is some validity to the concept that knowing you can pirate things changes your perspective on what is worth purchasing.

    Final point - for those that state it does not consume any physical goods, so therefore does not really hurt the companies that are pirated I look at it this way. Everyone has a set amount of money they can spend on these things. These companies and individuals are competing for that set pool of money. Pirating breaks that system. Maybe a game is better, but easier to pirate, so that developer gets screwed.

    Long live capitalism! I am now off to go sneak by video camera into a theatre so I can upload the movie to the internet, while listening to music I obtained from Napster and eating some steak that fell off the back of a truck.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:01 pm

    The American dream I'm that last paragraph

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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:18 pm

    For the record, I've never pirated anything, so I'm not rationalising. Its a simple concept. Download thing that you haven't been exposed to, then if you like it, support the creators by buying more of their stuff. So you're exposed to material you weren't willing or able to experience by paying, and have the option of buying further products to support the developers.

    As I already stated, as far as developers are concerned, buying second hand is no different. The developers don't see a dime for second hand sales, and the people who pirated the media obviously weren't willing to pay full price for it, so second hand is the next option.

    Its not theft by the way, its piracy. Its unlicensed use of the product (you don't own digital copies, you pay for a licence that allows you to legally store the data for your use) which is a crime, but its not theft.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Xacktastic on Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:50 pm

    I don;t think there is a single thing wrong with it. It is no different from when we used to burn cd's or movies and share them with friends. 90% of developers/musicians don;t care, and those that do lose a LOT of PR and seem douchey for being against it. My favorite thing is when someone says "Go ahead and steal it, and have fun." You know what I instantly want to do? Go actually buy it, because I now respect the creator for just wanting it out there, and not being stuck up on money.
    Its like this:
    Greedy and against it = I am more likely to pirate
    Awesome, gives it away = I am more likely to buy it just to support them.

    So, I think they definitely make more money when they;re cool about it, and personally, I see nothing wrong with it at all.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Xacktastic on Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:51 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:For the record, I've never pirated anything, so I'm not rationalising. Its a simple concept. Download thing that you haven't been exposed to, then if you like it, support the creators by buying more of their stuff. So you're exposed to material you weren't willing or able to experience by paying, and have the option of buying further products to support the developers.

    As I already stated, as far as developers are concerned, buying second hand is no different. The developers don't see a dime for second hand sales, and the people who pirated the media obviously weren't willing to pay full price for it, so second hand is the next option.

    Its not theft by the way, its piracy. Its unlicensed use of the product (you don't own digital copies, you pay for a licence that allows you to legally store the data for your use) which is a crime, but its not theft.

    I do this ALL the time. If I like what I torrent I instantly buy it.


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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by bmurn on Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:55 pm

    'The bottom line to me is the developers have the right to the content. They have the right to determine how they are going to distribute that content and the right to determine the price for which they want to distribute that content. This includes whether or not they want people to sample the content. By pirating someone is not respecting the rights of the other individual involved.

    Silly example, but that is the fun of these discussion. You don't steal a car in an effort to see whether or not you may want to purchase it at a future date. You test drive, you read about it. You do all the things that are allowed by the other party in the transaction as their right of ownership.

    I would not think that buying something second hand is the same as pirating as far as the developers are concerned. In the case of pirating an additional license is out there at no benefit financially to the developer. In the case of buying second hand no additional license is put out there. Someone is foregoing their license in exchange for money which is no different than any other secondary market.
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    Re: Piracy: good or bad?

    Post by Xacktastic on Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:02 pm

    bmurn wrote:'The bottom line to me is the developers have the right to the content. They have the right to determine how they are going to distribute that content and the right to determine the price for which they want to distribute that content. This includes whether or not they want people to sample the content. By pirating someone is not respecting the rights of the other individual involved.

    Silly example, but that is the fun of these discussion. You don't steal a car in an effort to see whether or not you may want to purchase it at a future date. You test drive, you read about it. You do all the things that are allowed by the other party in the transaction as their right of ownership.

    I would not think that buying something second hand is the same as pirating as far as the developers are concerned. In the case of pirating an additional license is out there at no benefit financially to the developer. In the case of buying second hand no additional license is put out there. Someone is foregoing their license in exchange for money which is no different than any other secondary market.

    I disagree. I don;t think this is relevant.
    Pirating would be synonymous to:
    "Your friend bought a new car. He offers to let you borrow it for a while, since you were considering buying one. If in a week, you decide you don't like it, you give it back to your friend. Nothing has changed. If you do like it, you buy it. And there, the company makes that money it wouldn't have, because a customer shared his product. You probably wouldn't have bought the car without having it first, since it's an investment."
    Thats the correct analogy.


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