... Dark souls review?

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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Federally on Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:59 am

    BLA1NE wrote:I find it strange how people confuse plot or backstory with story, in video games. You watch a movie, someone asks you what the story is, you tell them what the characters have gone through during the movie, no? You don't tell them that "there were dragons hundreds of years ago and they all killed each other and... and then these characters are in this movie." So why is it that "story" in a video game is that there were dragons hundreds of years ago? To me, the story in Dark Souls is what you're DOING the entire time. Your journey from the Asylum through Lordran and finally out of the Kiln is quite a tale. How is that NOT a story? It's almost irrelevant that there were dragons hundreds of years ago when your own present journey was so epic.

    And in that regards, if we're going to compare Dark Souls with other RPGs on the merits of its story, I'd say it stacks up more than adequately, and playing it in Dark Souls is much more epic than other RPGs because of the intricate gameplay. Killing bosses, to me, is a story. Killing bosses in Dark Souls, to me, is a lot more epic than doing it in other RPGs.

    You can dig around the plot and backstory on all these other games all you want, and Dark Souls has more than its share of that too, but to me the story is what you do.

    I agree with you fully Forum Hunk. Everyone who says Rpgs require an elaborate storyline seem to forget the origins of Rpgs, table top games. In table top Rpgs there was no freakin story to follow, the adventure was you and your friends creating characters and playing through an imaginary world with damned dice rolls. What you experienced and did was the story! Dark Souls isn't a perfect evolution of those games but it's the closest thing you can get to that experience in modern gaming.

    I just don't understand why we consider these digital "choose your own adventure" books like Mass Effect Rpgs when a game like DkS that simply creates a world for you to tell your own story in is not. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against ME games, I just think we have a warped definition of Rpg and similarly bizarre expectations from a game labeled Rpg.

    Edit. Can I also add...if that guy is really a Bethesda employee I'm kind of disgusted. I played the **** out of Skyrim and really had fun, I have plenty of complaints about it but I generally liked the game. However the story sucks a big bag of ****. Some of the side/guild quest lines were written well but as far as the main plot, it was terrible. In the first few main plot events you find out there is a big bad dragon who wants to eat the world and prophecy says you're gonna kill him and save everyone. Not only is it unoriginal but there is no suspense, you're told in the opening cutscene the freakin dragon born is going to save the world then 2 hours later you're told you in fact are the dragon born. Some plot! Then don't even get me started on the abysmal story telling, I'm so sick of being TOLD the story through dialogue in a GAME. I want to play the game and experience the story, not be told it through hundreds of lines of dialogue from 30 Npcs voiced by 6 voice actors.

    /Rant


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Azran on Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:21 am

    Yup. Info-dump through exposition is the biggest sin a writer can make. silly
    To be honest, I played through Kingdoms of Amalur and Skyrim skipping all dialogue. And after checking the script, I can't say I feel like I missed anything regarding the overall experience.

    It amuses me to no end when people actually complain that Dark Souls does not infodump.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Federally on Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:25 am

    Azran wrote:Yup. Info-dump through exposition is the biggest sin a writer can make. silly
    To be honest, I played through Kingdoms of Amalur and Skyrim skipping all dialogue. And after checking the script, I can't say I feel like I missed anything regarding the overall experience.

    It amuses me to no end when people actually complain that Dark Souls does not infodump.

    The funniest part is Skyrim's entire plot is revealed in the trailer. How this creates a deep story to draw you in I'll never understand.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by DamageCK on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:09 am

    "Oh, no. This game is hard. I'm only on the second boss and I've already wet myself three times. I wish I had a story to distract me from all the *** kicking I'm not doing. Plus, this combat system sucks. It's not clunky at all.

    Also, Capra Demon is immortal. I tried to beat him two whole entire times, and I was button mashing and everything. Still couldn't do it. How come there aren't several hundred NPC's for me to make smalltalk with? I need to cycle through irrelevent dialogue on a regular basis. How come I can't forge a +15 weapon in the first ten minutes? I mean, that's a lot of grinding, man. That Giant's armor is super cool though...

    I also PvPed for thirty seconds. LAAAG. Really wish there was more story. It's not enough for me to play a game just because it's effing AWESOME. Anyone want to coop the Fraampt bossfight? I'm pretty good at this game already, I don't know what everyone's crying about.

    I wish this game was more like Skyrim, 'cause I really enjoy recycled concepts and game mechanics. What's with the gloomy atmosphere? Can I get some light in here, bro? This is bumming me out. Let's play some house music in the background. Why isn't the game telling me where to go all the time? I mean, hello. Play the game for me, Dark Souls.

    I touched this red thing on the ground and this red dude showed up. And get this, deebag wouldnt even coop the boss with me. I made a 'thief' character that's so badass. I've been cosplaying as a bush in the forest for three hours now, and they still haven't found me. All in all, though, this game is stupid. CAN I HAVE MORE OF THE SAME **** GAME DEVELOPERS HAVE BEEN DOING FOR YEARS PLEASE?! I hate a challenge, or an original idea..."


    Last edited by DamageCK on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by LordRevan on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:16 am

    Federally wrote:
    Azran wrote:Yup. Info-dump through exposition is the biggest sin a writer can make. silly
    To be honest, I played through Kingdoms of Amalur and Skyrim skipping all dialogue. And after checking the script, I can't say I feel like I missed anything regarding the overall experience.

    It amuses me to no end when people actually complain that Dark Souls does not infodump.

    The funniest part is Skyrim's entire plot is revealed in the trailer. How this creates a deep story to draw you in I'll never understand.

    Skyrim has multiple plot's not just one questline. Also the entire plot is not revealed in the trailer. It says what is happening and what must be done, but not why or how which is the real part of any plot.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Federally on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:17 am

    I nominate DamageCK's post as "Greatest Post Ever"


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by LordRevan on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:20 am

    Eh, can you summarise it... it looks like such a wall of text... Some enters here and there would of been nice.

    EDIT: Finally got through it all.. was quite a challenge silly


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Federally on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:26 am

    LordRevan wrote:
    Federally wrote:
    Azran wrote:Yup. Info-dump through exposition is the biggest sin a writer can make. silly
    To be honest, I played through Kingdoms of Amalur and Skyrim skipping all dialogue. And after checking the script, I can't say I feel like I missed anything regarding the overall experience.

    It amuses me to no end when people actually complain that Dark Souls does not infodump.

    The funniest part is Skyrim's entire plot is revealed in the trailer. How this creates a deep story to draw you in I'll never understand.

    Skyrim has multiple plot's not just one questline. Also the entire plot is not revealed in the trailer. It says what is happening and what must be done, but not why or how which is the real part of any plot.

    Yes the relatively short guild quest lines had interesting stories, well not the new warriors guild one who's name escapes me for some reason. Though in this case I believe it most effective to compare the story behind the main quest of Skyrim.

    And watch the main trailer for Skyrim, it shows the opening video which lays out very clearly the story which is thusly summarized "Big bad dragons return to kill everyone, chosen mythical hero is discovered, said mythical hero kills dragon and saves day". Now I agree the story isn't important, I thought it was the stupidest thing ever and still liked Skyrim. My point simply is its absurd to say Dark Souls isn't an Rpg or isn't the same quality game just because it doesn't include a story that's force fed to you, because really the story isn't Skyrim's strong point, to many of us its story and method of story telling are one of its weakest points.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by DamageCK on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:31 am

    LordRevan wrote:Eh, can you summarise it... it looks like such a wall of text... Some enters here and there would of been nice.

    EDIT: Finally got through it all.. was quite a challenge silly

    There. Added some essentially random linebreaks. Better? Haha.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by LordRevan on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:35 am

    DamageCK wrote:
    LordRevan wrote:Eh, can you summarise it... it looks like such a wall of text... Some enters here and there would of been nice.

    EDIT: Finally got through it all.. was quite a challenge silly

    There. Added some essentially random linebreaks. Better? Haha.

    Haha. Yup, much better silly


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by eminusx on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:47 am

    Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but what theyre not entitled to is subjectively dismissing a game without fully understanding the intentions of the designer or producer, there is no excuse for such willful ignorance.

    Personally, the central device that locks me into a game is usually present in many of the films that I love and ive often found myself likening Dark Souls to a David Lynch or Fellini film. Their films are purposefully dark, vague and disjointed, often to the point of bewilderment, theyre intentionally open to interpretation, theyre deeply suggestive, and they often deliver only the feintest whisp of plot for you to go at, but in the hands of Lynch, Fellini or FROM, ambiguity is a crucial tool when creating the atmospheric sense of isolation that draws the viewer or gamer in ever deeper and compels them to figure things out for themselves.

    All of the plot information is there within the film or game, only it's skillfully, intentionally hidden within the finer details of the environment, the weapons, the discoverable items & descriptions, the characters and even the film or games structure or editing. Getting the most from the film or game demands repeat viewings to fully appreciate it, and the shrewdness of application by the director or designer compells you to return time and again. FROM softwares intent was to put the player in a gruelling, dark world and let them find their own way, make their own mistakes and discover the story themselves as if they were really there, which forces them to play the game.

    Just as with a Lynch movie, an overabundance of information or story would betray their intentions and detract enormously from the experience as a whole. People may not like the films of Lynch or Dark Souls as a gaming experience, but to dismiss either is incredibly naive and smacks of laziness, nobody could ever accuse Lynch of being crap because they couldnt figure out what the story was the first time round, the guy is a genius, and I think its fair to compare Dark Souls to some of his best work in that sense.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:29 am

    I guess FROM got the inspiration for the Egg Head infection from watching "The Elephant Man"

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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by DamageCK on Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:30 am

    Or the Kardashians.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:32 am

    lol! True that.

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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by eminusx on Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:50 am

    DamageCK wrote:Or the Kardashians.

    could this be the origin of Smoughs earth-shakin' booty? one for the lore thread i'm sure! :affraid:


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by DamageCK on Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:55 am

    Hahaha. I love it.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:30 pm

    Right, as I've said before, DKS isn't an rpg. If thats what I was expecting I might have felt the same way. DKS is a dungeon crawl (shallow and short as dungeon crawls go btw), with 3rd person combat and rpg elements (the stats and gear).

    If you don't believe me, go play wizardry and remember your first play through of DKS as you do so.

    That said, judging him because he dislikes a game is beyond stupid. He doesn't have to enjoy it, his problems with it don't make him a retard, nor does his noticing the comparative lack of story make him a noob.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:43 pm

    eminusx wrote:Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but what theyre not entitled to is subjectively dismissing a game without fully understanding the intentions of the designer or producer, there is no excuse for such willful ignorance.

    Personally, the central device that locks me into a game is usually present in many of the films that I love and ive often found myself likening Dark Souls to a David Lynch or Fellini film. Their films are purposefully dark, vague and disjointed, often to the point of bewilderment, theyre intentionally open to interpretation, theyre deeply suggestive, and they often deliver only the feintest whisp of plot for you to go at, but in the hands of Lynch, Fellini or FROM, ambiguity is a crucial tool when creating the atmospheric sense of isolation that draws the viewer or gamer in ever deeper and compels them to figure things out for themselves.

    All of the plot information is there within the film or game, only it's skillfully, intentionally hidden within the finer details of the environment, the weapons, the discoverable items & descriptions, the characters and even the film or games structure or editing. Getting the most from the film or game demands repeat viewings to fully appreciate it, and the shrewdness of application by the director or designer compells you to return time and again. FROM softwares intent was to put the player in a gruelling, dark world and let them find their own way, make their own mistakes and discover the story themselves as if they were really there, which forces them to play the game.

    Just as with a Lynch movie, an overabundance of information or story would betray their intentions and detract enormously from the experience as a whole. People may not like the films of Lynch or Dark Souls as a gaming experience, but to dismiss either is incredibly naive and smacks of laziness, nobody could ever accuse Lynch of being crap because they couldnt figure out what the story was the first time round, the guy is a genius, and I think its fair to compare Dark Souls to some of his best work in that sense.
    Also have to disagree on this. I don't like gone with the wind. Its Fing boring. I don't care what the intentions were, I don't like it so I move on. There isn't enough time in life to fully understand everything we read, watch or play, so dismissing what you arn't enjoying is completely reasonable. I miss the point in romance novels, so rather than read them for hours divining their "true intent," I dismiss them and move on.

    Your argument reeks of the same willful ignorance you find unacceptable.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by BLA1NE on Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:18 pm

    ^Sure, alright. But when you "don't care what the intentions are, don't like it, and move on", do you stop to write a review about it?

    No, I bet you probably realize the creator's intentions went right above your head, so you respectfully keep your opinion to yourself, because you had enough brains to realize that, although the intentions went above your head, there were intentions there that you just didn't want to bother understanding. The writer of this "review" completely failed to realize there were depths to Dark Souls that he didn't grasp, and rather than moving on, he chose to write an ignorant review. He didn't demonstrate a desire to move on rather than understand the depths, he demonstrated complete ignorance of these depths by declaring that they did not exist.

    It's fine to not understand something, if you realize there's something there that you simply just don't understand. But to not understand, and then declare as fact, in a review, that there is nothing there, does make someone an idiot.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:29 pm

    Its not a brilliant idea, but realising that you miss a point can be rather difficult. It wouldn't seem so, but at least in my experience it can very well be. It takes consistent effort on my part to remember that other people see a point where I do not.

    1 mistake does not make someone an idiot. I lost my phone once and found it in the fridge, then found the milk on my bed. Was that a stupid mistake? Yes. Does that make me stupid? No.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by LordRevan on Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:44 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:1 mistake does not make someone an idiot. I lost my phone once and found it in the fridge, then found the milk on my bed. Was that a stupid mistake? Yes. Does that make me stupid? No.

    It is pretty funny though silly


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:48 pm

    LordRevan wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:1 mistake does not make someone an idiot. I lost my phone once and found it in the fridge, then found the milk on my bed. Was that a stupid mistake? Yes. Does that make me stupid? No.

    It is pretty funny though silly

    I second that, pretty funny thing to do winking


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by eminusx on Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:15 pm

    im fairly amazed at how you could entirely misunderstand the very first line, then be daft enough to quote some of it back at me. .

    . . youre absolutely right that there isnt enough time to fully understand everything you read, watch or play, and thats fine, but you should never dismiss something outright simply because you didnt like it!

    Theres an unquantifiably huge amount of stuff i'd love to understand that is quite simply beyond my mental capacity, super-symmetries and string theory, Sartre, RPG or Dungeon crawler. . . the list goes on, but what sort of idiot would i be if I wrote a review on the internet claiming that Physics is bo!!ocks simply because i cant get my head around how it works? Thankfully I have enough self restraint to stop myself from sounding like a prize be!!-end by making such a schoolboy error.


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by eminusx on Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:21 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Its not a brilliant idea, but realising that you miss a point can be rather difficult. It wouldn't seem so, but at least in my experience it can very well be. It takes consistent effort on my part to remember that other people see a point where I do not.

    1 mistake does not make someone an idiot. I lost my phone once and found it in the fridge, then found the milk on my bed. Was that a stupid mistake? Yes. Does that make me stupid? No.

    Hey, I wouldnt take it personally or get too hung up on it, at least you can write witty anecdotes! lol


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    Re: ... Dark souls review?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:23 pm

    They are entitled to entirely dismiss it for whatever reasons, or lack there of, that they wish. Everybody is entitled to do whatever they please. Its not wilful ignorance to dismiss something because you don't see the point or don't understand, in fact, its entirely logical from an individual perspective, especially if an effort was made to understand the topic.

    Further more, at least from the OP, several of his points are dead on. Compared to RPGs (which again DKS isn't) There is virtually no story. The story is your experience rather than the games direction. Thats not bad imo but he was clearly judging the game as an RPG, and in RPGs it is bad. There is also virtually no direction, which is a serious barrier to progression in many cases. This also doesn't bother me because its typical of dungeon crawls like DKS and I enjoy figuring that type of thing out, but if Final Fantasy started pulling that same thing I'd be confused and angry for a while.

    The issue seems to be that he believes DKS is an RPG and judges it by those standards. Well, as an RPG, DKS sucks. It has few of the things that mark a good rpg. DS and DKS are rather unique in that they're 3rd person action dungeon crawls, an empty genre. So its called an RPG to simplify things.






    Also, don't call me daft. Its against the rules, and insults are counter productive to the development of the community here.


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