Character Speculation part II: Seath the Scaleless

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    Character Speculation part II: Seath the Scaleless

    Post by King-Of-Twilight on Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:43 pm

    Part two: Seath the Scaleless

    If the backstory From Software has given us about Seath has told is anything, it has told us that Seath was a monster. He performed heinous experiments on innocent young women, he betrayed his own kind and is one of the major reasons they are almost extinct, and several more.

    This is supported in numerous places, such as the Pisacas cage at the bottom of the prison tower. (context: The blue octapus-serpent hybrids). If the alarm is shut off, then the Pisacas sit there and weep to themselves, which sounds kind of upsetting to listen to from how I say it, but in practice it'd quite disturbing. Another support of this is that two of the Pisacas killed leave behind the miracles Soothing Sunlight and Bountiful Sunlight, both of which are stated in the description to only be given to Gwynevere's handmaidens. I have also come to believe that the Man-Serpents are his doing, and it is confirmed that Seath created the Moonlight Butterflies and the Crystal Golems, not to mention everything else in the Duke's Archives.

    Seath was a very emotionally charged being as I see it. He betrayed his own kind and nearly eradicated them all because he did not have the scales that granted them enternal life, while he himself would only live for a few hundred years. He was driven by jealousy and a feeling of inferiority, as well as the shunnin he must have recieved for both being born without scales, and being born with insectoid wings.

    Another possibility (though far less likely) is that Seath fell in love with a god, and switched sides to fight for her. This would not only fit with the emotional aspect of things, but it may also explain Priscilla, whom From Software have confirmed as Seath's daughter. The only potential mother figures we know of in Dark Souls lore are the Witch of Izalith, Gwynevere and Velka, but the Witch is unlikely, as she had seven daughters and a son of her own anyway, and we know far too little about the god of Justice to place blame on her (though that may explain why Velka's equipment is in the Painted World with Priscilla), so the most likely mother is Gwynevere. Far more likely from what we know about Seath would be that he did betray his own kind out of envy, and then later raped the mother without Gwyn ever knowing the truth, hence why he retained his dukedom.

    It is stated that the Channelars that serve Seath are apparently everywhere, watching the world for Seath like spies. They are actually found in several in-game location that are a fair distance from the Duke's Archives such as the Undead Parish and the Depths, so this may not be entirely false. The reason I bring them up is because Seath was blinded by one of his experiments (I refuse to believe he was born blind. How the hell did he wipe out hundred of thousands of dragons if he couldn't see them? Besides, being blinded would serve him right for his evil doings), and Seath made each Channelar wear a helmet with six eyes, to compensate for his lack of vision. Also, I doubt he was born with tentacles, and that that was another experimental failure on Seath's behalf.

    So far, we have jealousy, we have hatred, we have ****, we have ungodly and unethical scientific experimentation and we have just total assholery. What else is there left to add but madness?

    Seath has clearly gone completely insane by the time the Chosen Undead stumbles upon him, completely obsessed with Crystals as his new form of immortality (which, until the Primordial Crystal is broken, is fully apparent). We see first hand what the crystals have done to the Hollows Seath kept around the Archives. They were pumped full of crystals until they had no skin, and all of their internal organs where solidified. Hell, if you hit a Crystal Undead, they don't bleed red blood. Their blood refracts light, creating a rainbow effect due to all of the tiny crystals in their (no doubt crystallized) veins. Seath has also performed these experiments upon himself, seeing as not only does he bleed in exactly the same way, but you can see large portions of crystal growing from his tail and lower back, on the off chance that you missed his entire waist being engulfed by crystal and stone. Another thing about his madness; when one breaks the Lrimordial Crystal, Seath howls in rage. It makes me wonder whether he's screaming because I've destroyed his life's work, the destruction of the crystal caused him agony, or if he is so mad that he is enraged by the slightest inconvenience.

    Finally, I speak about Seath's enemy Bishop Havel the Rock, long-time friend to Lord Gwyn, hater of magic and hater of dragons. Seath being a magical dragon (and the inventor of most modern magics) as well as a trator, I can see why Havel would despise him. However, not much else is said on the matter, though I believe that the hate was mutual, and that Seath had a claw in Havel being locked away in that tower. I like to think that the straw that broke the camels back was that one of the handmaidens was Havel's romantic interest, and when Seath had her captured and changed (I use that term loosely), he attacked the dragon, who feigned innocence to Gwyn, who in turn locked Havel away for both attacking the Duke and for then attacking Gwyn (I like to think that Gwyn knew about the handmaidens, and let Seath do it, but he didn't know about one of them being a romantic interest for Havel. Havel is locked away 'for his own good, of course', Seath earns another cheap victory, and Gwyn loses a piece of himself for ease filly killing on of his oldest and greatest allies and friends. In true Seath style, everyone involved loses but the scaleless dragon.

    The only thing more I could add is that Seath obviously did not take good care of himself, hence why we can see his ribcage. Actually, no. Another thing: The Man-Eater Clams are native to Ash Lake, and the Everlastig Dragon reside down there. How has he not noticed yet? Or did he choose to ignore his eternal relative, due to his madness and crystal obsession?


    JESUS that is a wall of text. Sorry, I got carried away...uh, hope you enjoyed. Comments and opinions are welcome and even encouraged, as are corrections.

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    Re: Character Speculation part II: Seath the Scaleless

    Post by FattyOfDoom on Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:28 pm

    How is it likely Gywnevere? The only thing going is that she's massive, but that is the illusion, so it can't be her


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    Re: Character Speculation part II: Seath the Scaleless

    Post by FattyOfDoom on Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:31 pm

    And also, if you look closely, you can see these crystal scales on seath, he nearly completed his goal. (Before we killed him)


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    Re: Character Speculation part II: Seath the Scaleless

    Post by User on Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:03 pm

    You missed a good amount, I think.

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    Re: Character Speculation part II: Seath the Scaleless

    Post by King-Of-Twilight on Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:03 pm

    Like I said, corrections are welcome. Though, who else could the mother be?


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    Re: Character Speculation part II: Seath the Scaleless

    Post by Shkar on Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:09 pm

    King-Of-Twilight wrote:Like I said, corrections are welcome. Though, who else could the mother be?

    Acidic has given evidence that it is quite likely Velka, Goddess of Sin.

    I don't think there IS a "mother". I VERY highly doubt that it was an actual birth. The actual conception would be strange, if even possible due to the size of Seath (and the simple SHAPE of the bodies), and from a real world biology stance, it technically shouldn't even be possible.

    Humans and Dragons are different species; the very definition of that means that they can't reproduce biologically. Therefor, magic or science was most likely involved.

    And I feel disturbed for writing this...


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    Re: Character Speculation part II: Seath the Scaleless

    Post by cloudyeki on Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:14 pm

    Spoiler:
    Seath is an underhanded, selfish creature. Everything he did was for his own gain. The betrayal of his kin out of jealousy, the kidnapping of maidens for experiments. Even his status of duke is beneficial, his being apart of Gwyn's court allowing him sway with the gods. It wouldn't be far fetched that he would use Gwyn's absence as a chance to build an army to take the world in his claws.

    But Seath has one major flaw. His obsession with living forever, both from his being an outcast among his kin, and possibly a fear of Nito. By the time you see the Primordial Crystal, it is held within a protected cavern within his home, at the very depths an extremely fragile object. Maybe as he continued to live off the crystal's power it was starting to weaken.

    Tolvo: Huge speculation/Crazy/insane idea, but what if actually the Dragons weren't all that bad? They looked over humanity worried about them destroying themselves, trying to keep them low and weak so they could never cause self harm. Hiding away secrets too powerful ever for the minds of these beings, such as the Crystal. And that Seath actually helped cause the war, he wanted it for himself and used it as a guise to establish his position, give him time to research, and safety from any possible enemies with his new allies. If this were the case, the dragons would be right. Because of humans there are demons, undead curses, poisoned and tainted areas, beings of wicked and malevolant magic and design. Truly, what if some of the greatest heroes in Dark Souls were the dragons who looked over humanity?

    Dough Guy: Im inclined to agree because for goodness knows how long before the first flame was lit the humans and dragons lived side by side without bloodshed. However I cant see Seath starting the war. the first flame started the war, I think Seath just saw an opportunity and took it.

    Tolvo: That is possible as well, though I do feel inclined to believe that he at least helped the cause with some propaganda. As well, imagine if anyone ever tried to contest his position. He was the only "Good" dragon who was willing to see past the tyrannical rule of his people, fighting to save the race of humanity and bring forth the age of man. Damn, he's either the greatest warmongering in Dark Souls, or the Greatest Opportunist.

    A bit from the old Magical Theory thread. Seath really is a great character to think about, because he has ALOT of interesting history and lore regarding him.


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    Re: Character Speculation part II: Seath the Scaleless

    Post by User on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:59 am

    Spoiler:
    3. Seath the Scaleless, the Most Active Lord

    Their are Four Beings with the soul of the Lord that rule Lordran, or Seven if you count the Four Kings as Four People. Nito, The Bed of Chaos, Seath, and the Four Kings. Niro Resides only in the Catacombs and the TotG, building up it's own power, with the power of the Dead. The Bed of Chaos, a grotesque creature that is the bizzaro of the Flame. The Four Kings, residing in the Abyss, with their followers residing in the Dark City. And Seath.

    Nito has shown no influence outside his domain at all, as the Dead are not seen outside the world. The Bed of Chaos' only infuence are the Demons that have spread across Lordran and Beyond, such as the Green Demons in the Asylum, and the two Hybrid Animal Demons that lives in Undead Burg. The Four Kings have only the Thorn Knight as their influence out their, it the world of Lordran. And Then Their is Seath.

    Seath has two followers, the Channelers, out in the world. One in the Undead Church. The Other in the Depths. Now it would make sense that one would be in the Church, as it awaits the White Maiden for their experiment. However, the one in the Depths seems to be the most unlikely place to be in. What are they going to find in such a location as the Depths? Rats? Hollows? Slimes? Why would the developers intentionally put such a creature in a place where it did not fit. The demon beasts are a symbol of humanity turn beastly, as the Chaos Flame created them, in which they reside with the other mad creatures, the Hollows, in a war-like state. The Thorn Knight also seems to be chasing, looking for something in the Demonic Underdepths, whether it is the humanity from wandering undead or something more is unknown. So what is the Channeler doing in the Depths? He's building up.

    As the fragment of the Gwyn's Soul resides inside him, Seath is bound to the flame. As is all lords of Dark Souls. Seath is more calculating. More creative in a way. He created life threw magic and other factors, creating the Moonlight Butterflies and the Crystal Golems. He also created the Crossbreed creature, who seems to have a mass amount of creatures who follow her, with even an undead dragon that is inside a painting somehow. The Maiden he looks for is a factor that he wants to use to create a creature of something, although other maidens have turned into serpentine creatures (which oddly enough have serpent leggings like Gwyndolin). Since the Gaping Dragon reside in the Depths, the Channeler could be an adviser, or a bodyguard, that is set to the Gaping Dragon. Perhaps this Dragon is an connected ally to Seath, and not just an odd beast.

    It would make sense. Seath has a Hydra, an aquatic dragon, guarding the cave to Dusk's Crystal Body. Their are even Crystal Golems that reside by it. It seems that Seath wanted Dusk for some reason, but for what is unknown. Same as for the Daughter of the Onion Knight. And what of the Butterfly? A magical creature itself has it's own guardians, with sleeping Golems, Ents, and other creatures seen their, protecting the Stone Smith. I do not think he is protecting the Ember, rather the Butterfly is protecting the Key, the Key to Seath's Nemesis, Havel the Rock. The Ember is probably used as the life source for the butterfly, while it protects it's treasure. It also seems odd that the other Stone Smith is in a domain ruled by another one of Seaths Creations. The Occult. Of course, she could have used the Occult Ember to take get status as Life Hunter, and absorbed the power of the Ember as the Butterfly has so.

    It would make sense why Seath would have taken Dusk of Oocalie. She is a power of Magic, a creature who uses magic that no one else knowns. Interestingly, I think she was captured as Seaths own failsafe of Knowledge, as he is known to have books of knowledge. Her crystal form would have been his own secure library. In fact, her whole kingdom was burned to the ground, leaving nothing for anyone to learn the art of bending Light. But what of the Onion Girl? Why would she have been captured? Was it because her trying to find her father lead her to a place that Seath used as a perfect time to experiment? Or was it because he Needed to protect his Domain with a strong creature, with the power from her Knightly expertise rather than the influence of Dusk's Magic? That I do not know.

    What also interests my is the Knight of Favor, the murderous knight who believes in no moral values, and has his own mission? As he is, he is summonable in the Church and the Depths, both locations of the Channelers. It also is seen giving advice about the maiden, and if I remember correctly, says that you should rescue the White Maiden. Odd. Then, after taking care of business, he kills the Firekeeper and Steals her soul, only to be found back in Anor Londo, dead in the boss area, with his Armour easily obtainable. When you invade him, the world is a Dark Anor Londo, meaning that he himself had killed the Illusion at his own time, in his World. What was Lautrec's mission?

    It seems that he is after a creature with activity seen in Lordron, the Crystal Serpent. Being a knight who follows the code of a goddess of favor, his mission seems to be connected to Seath at every turn. To tell the player about the White Maiden, to help kill the Dragon and the Belfry Gargoyles, and to then go to Anor Londo, the once home of many of the Gods. It's seems that He was chosen to destroy the influence of the Serpent itself. Odd, how both summonable places, Lautrec has the Channelers residing their as well. Very odd indeed.

    Seath, a new lord bound to the Flame, seems to be the most influential of all the Lords in Dark Souls. Perhaps he, along with the creations he has made, and the Dragons he had aligned with, he seeks to rule the world as the Monarch of power he seeks. Many say he went mad trying to find the new form of Scales, but he is already set with his Crystal Immortal Staff. Plus, he formed his flesh with layers of crystals, giving him more power. Perhaps he did not go mad with Research, but with Power. A very into the Moment kind of Dragon.

    He also seems to have creatures such as Man-Eater Clams in his domain. It could not have been created by Seath, as their are Clams within the Ash Lake. Their is also Mushroom People, and the Basalisks as well. It also seems odd as the Basalisks are seen within the Same Layer as the Gaping Dragon, and the Mushroom People protecting an Ember of Magic, Seaths prior source of Power. It's a small world out their.

    I hope this helps unravel the Story soon. Perhaps I may uncover something before the end

    Spoiler:
    16. Knee Deep in Mass

    When you look at blighttown, the Hollowed Trees go down into the earth, as you say. Even more so, Ash Lake can be seen within the catacombs, which are also deep underground, as well as seeing the Demon Ruins (which seems to be the same level of grounding, if not similar). When you look at the trees in Ash lake, you see them reach up high from the earth it lays in, which seems to be buried deep within the Waters that engulfs the bottom of these roots (which possibly gives it endless nutrience). Even more so, the Prologue saw more ground than what Ash Lake does now, instead of the vast lake that surrounds the trees. So what is ash lake?

    Its Sanctuary. As you travel into water with a scuba suit, you find a different world within the plains of an aquatic world. Similar case to that of the Ash Lake. As these trees sprout in the outside world, their roots are deep down into the earth. As you travel down the great hollow, you travel down part of the hollowed area within the MASSIVE Arch Tree. Even more so, you reach yourself towards ashlake from its near roots. However, like the rest of the trees, it does not stop at the Ashy Sands. More so, it stops deep, deep into the waters, and possibly even farther into the center of the earth. The clouds it emits cover the entire roofing of the mass, as seen from both the Tomb of Giants and Ash Lake itself. Even more so, creatures live within this flooded world, with Mushroom men and Basilisks. Even the Man-Eater Clams and the Hydra live in the area as well. It seems like an unlikely place, due to Ash Lake being so... flooded.

    Even more so, Ash Lake holds a few things within these areas as well. The Dragon Covenant and the Stone Dragon. I prefer to call it as such, due to its physical appearance being not so much the Everlastings in the Lore Video, as it seems more animal like than such. However, its ability to give these 'special' stones is... interesting. These Stones give the ability to the humans to use stones to transform their body, with the sacrifice of Scales. Hm. Even so, the Giant Skull of the Ash Lake is not the same as what the Giant Skulls were in the Tomb of Giants. Large, very large indeed. Perhaps it was part of Nito's army, until it was destroyed by something bigger... or is it something else? Even more so, Dragon Scales are Scattered Across the Lake, but only two dragons can be seen in this place. So what is this place? What is this hub of the mirrored world of the age of ancients? What does the Dragon Covenant have to do with anything.

    Simple. Ash Lake is not the mirrored world of such an Age, it is the surviving 'Underroot' of such things. The Great Hollowed Arch Tree is the only hint of being destroyed by other things, and the skull beside seems to indicate that it was created by some kind of battle, with the skull beside it. No other body pieces survive. Even more so, it looks humanoid... I think that the skull was once human, but was before something else before its... transformation. When a Dragonoid Dies, it converts itself back into Human Form. This Skull... is of Human Form. However its head seems to have adapted to its lifestyle it had. These Dragons were physically greater than any other being across the plains of existence, using the power of their breaths and their physical traits of beast-like quality to destroy all those who oppose them... Perhaps these Everlasting Dragons were not the same quality as that of the Hydra, the Wyverns, and other beasts who seem more serpent-like than so. Even the Dragonoids have more similarities to such beasts, as well as the Stone Dragon, than the other Dragons. Perhaps these Everlasting Dragons were... human?

    Think about it. Seath could not find the power of Scales, no matter how hard he tried. Where ever he looked, he found no way to use such abilities, and had to use alternatives. The Hydra in Darkroot and the Gaping Dragon, which both have Seath's Followers beside it, could possibly be Dragons who oppose to such beasts, the Everlasting Dragons. They may be descendants of the Everlasting Dragons, but they are not of such quality as they were. Even more so, Lighting Weapons, as said by the description, are effective against magic, fire, and above all Dragons. Perhaps these Dragons were not born into it, rather they were creatures, possibly even beings, who had been raised into such qualities with such rituals. These Many different types of dragons could have been the most dangerous creatures of them all, if it was not for the Everlasting Dragons. Perhaps the Everlasting Dragons sprouted from the rituals of Scales and Dragon Transformations as Humans once before. As Lightning Weapons and Miracles are those against fire, magic, and dragons, perhaps these Dragons and others came from such Magic, Fire, and Dragon Scales. It seems odd that a Dragon such as a Stone Dragon rests easily within a nest with a Bonfire, a Firekeeper Bonfire at that. Perhaps that the Quality of Fire comes from the Dragon within themselves. So what of Seath?

    Seath is not like any dragon within the world. He is Scaleless, as no scales can be seen on him. In fact, it could be possible that he also was human, but used similar abilities to transform as such. But how? If he were to use such power in order to become a Dragon, how is it such that Seath has no Scales? This puzzled me for awhile. The idea of the Everlasting Dragons being once Human as the Dragons was something I thought of after someone had mentioned it to me before hand. But what of Seath? As it were, it seems entirely simple. Seath was not naturally born like the Gaping Dragons and Hydras, nor was he transformed the same way as the Everlasting Dragons. No, Seath is a being of sorcery, and his breath is not of Fire, but of Magic. His Body is not as solid as such beasts, and as his tail hints (the Moonlight Sword), his body is of pure sorcery, pure magic. Perhaps that he could not obtain the Fire and Scales necessary to become such a being. Perhaps that, being the master of Sorcery, he had extended himself into the Growth of being a Dragon with the power of Magic from the Soul, the power of Sorcery. So Seath was once human, as it were, however had transformed into such a beast he is now, which seems to be blinded and his body to be weak (compared to the Scaled Creatures). Maybe their is a reason why Logan went Hollow. Perhaps he saw something that distorted him, something that he did not want to know, and his ideas of searching for more information became defeated with something so... powerful.
    Perhaps that is also the reason why Havel had such a hatred for such a creature, as he Wanted to remove all sorts of Sorceries, as it is known that he hated sorceries, as well as Dragons. It seems Magic and Dragons seems to tie together, and Seath is such a pure example... of course his lack of other things shows what would happen if you miss a few ingredients, I can say.

    As it were, the Age of Ancients was plagued, burned, and destroyed by the Three Lords of the Flames, with possibly the help of the Pygmy. In the world up high, the Arch trees still spring up form the ground, however these lands were destroyed by many, mainly the Fire Witches and the Gravelord Nito, using Fire and Disease in order to remove the Plain of the Ancients, while Gwyn used the power that the Dragons are weak against, the power of Lightening. Why this is so is unknown. Perhaps it is a metaphor of such things. It is hard to say. As the Witch of Izalith is that of Chaos and Destruction, While Nito is that of the Death and Misery found in such times, Gwyn shows qualities of Order and Monarchy. So why is it that the Dragons are a subject of hatred? Is it because they were creatures of Primitive yet Extremely Powerful aspects? Are they the symbol of nature, with the power revolution against such thing sin order for advancement to be achieved. Or are the Dragons the aspect of Power, as they are indeed those of Pure Power, using the power of the physical self to distinguish all. It is hard to say. What seems to be, is that the world is that of many confusing traits, and the Lore Unanswered for many things, as it is so for Dark Souls... which is more fascinating than any other thing that has story.

    If this were true, as it would be said for the Dragons being Human... what is the Gaping Dragon? His axe says 'Dragon King' on it. Is he a ruler of such things, is he so powerful that he triumphs over other dragons (other than the Duke, Seath). His Body shows qualities of something that is mighty, as its tail, wings, legs... even the Ribs show that of some 'grotesque' mighty creature that would rule some plain, unlike other Dragons within the world. It could be that the Gaping Dragon is possibly the ruler of Dragons.. but why does it live within the Depths? As it came from the water pit that is below... did it come from Ash lake itself? Sigh, it is hard to say. What I do know is that he is one of the most interesting Dragons to me, second only to Seath Himself. Third being that of the Crossbreed. The Crossbreed... half god, half dragon. Since it was not born as a dragon, nor was she converted from human into dragon, her quality of being is so... wrong. For many at least. As Seath had been in love with Gwynevre or some other Goddess (although Gwynevre's statue is close to such painting...), she was created in a unique way than others. It would seem odd how such a being could exist, since many would see Dragons and Man being different all together, as Men slay Dragons. However, her hints of White show the qualities of Seath... but as of why she seems to have fur to qualify to the winter is unknown. The question is whethe rit is her fur or not. Whatever it may be, she is still a dragon... a half dragon at that. Her magic breath she uses that curses others is similar to that of Seath's as well. Although she looks much more appealing than a Lizard (her father, at least, which is completely disabled compared to others).

    So what is Ash lake? Its a simple factor that can be easily understood once the factors of it is understood. It is the true home of the Dragons. It is Strong and Wide, as its trees hold the world up, and the Waters are so deep that the trees will never thirst. The ashy sands are those of the firy connection between lava and water (as it reaches deep down to the earth, it could be that the sands are the product of such occurrences. As Ash lake shows those of the mass, the Dragons are such creatures of quality as well. it is the Dragons Domain, and as it once was before the entire world was its Domain. The Dragons are those who are similar to that of Ash Lake, being Massive and Strong. Despite all this, it seems to be similar to the 'Journey to the Center of the Earth', with Dinosaurs and supposed Extinct Creatures living underneath us. The only difference is that these Dragons do not stay, they travel back and forth from the underground to the 'surface'.

    I may be wrong, but it is what sticks up as a thumb to me. As the research continues, this seems to be what seeming is the 'Logical' Choice, as other scenarios and such in my head has always had more faults and less sense than what I have... despite how much of a Massive push it is. Still, it seems to me that I am using everything form the game into play. every scenario within the game that I tried to find that would subject against it always seemed proven wrong in my head, and searching if it were true rested my case as such. Still, the chance I am wrong is still their. Ash lake, the Dragons, the Arch trees... all very interesting when it comes to what Dark Souls is. These Dragons, as I know, were of little importance to Demon Souls. In Dark Souls, the Lore and History of Dark Souls has Not quality to its spiritual predecessor, and replaced the Demons that were such a genuine subject with more than that.

    I shall search more. I have yet to figured it out as a whole, and the puzzle needs to be solved, I know. I will succeed. Debates and Agreements are always there to show, and this Lore will be written with Light. I hope this Post as Enjoyable as it was for me to write about it. I feel like I am getting closer... or farther. Hm.


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