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    The Story Behind: How and Why

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    Post by Shkar Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:22 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:lol its in your mind. I subscribe to Acidic's cynaclism threory of holloing and by it as long as you can keep hope alive then you wont hollow.
    Then again Velka. ****. You could be right.

    Either way, that whole point was just a topic to support your character being special. As I said, the part about you repsawning at a bonfire may just be a gameplay mechanic, and actually "dying" would reset you back at the asylum.

    Someone (I think Scarecrow) said in another thread that all the characters have tragic stories. That definitely fits with my theory. What could be more tragic then being forced to live through an awful experience of watching everyone around you fail, die, or go insane over and over again until you get it perfect?
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    Post by DoughGuy Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:09 pm

    Yeah, you could be right. i completely frogot about Velka ut her influence could be keeping you alive.
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    Post by CaptanSpudsy Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:05 am

    I wouldn't put it past Velka to do that, but despite her being a very powerful goddess, I doubt she has enough power to continually loop time. After all, Gwyn was supposed to have the most powerful soul, so only he could do that. Which I doubt.
    So there must be some ultra-powerful uber-source affecting all of DkS universe. Which means that the other lands would be looping in time as well.
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    Post by DoughGuy Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:06 am

    What if Velka didnbt have a lord soul? What if she had the soul of the first firekeeper? The soul that started the first flame?
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    Post by skarekrow13 Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:37 am

    For the time mechanic I shall reference the legendary Dark Tower series by Stephen King. In those seven books the hero is on a quest to remove a mad sorcerer for a tower that serves as a linchpin for all of existence. Kinda like Gwyn/First Flame is to Lordran. There's also other things holding everything together in the books but the idea is that there is an erosion of the linchpin and support mechanisms meaning everything is becoming "loose" so to speak. The main character is hinted to have been around for eons but is not himself that old, so there's differences in time like Dark Souls where things are all over the place. At the end he sort of achieves the goal but it's not perfect, the last book ends with the same wording as the first chapter of the first book except that this time he has an item with him that might make a difference.

    I think the time anomalies are similar to this theory in that everything is decaying. It's not just the buildings and people and creatures that are affected, time and light (Why is the Sun always in the same place, why are some areas dark despite the sun being out, etc.). As a result time does some strange things, including skipping like a record or CD over and over until conditions are perfect for the song to move on.
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    Post by Shkar Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:11 pm

    CaptanSpudsy wrote:I wouldn't put it past Velka to do that, but despite her being a very powerful goddess, I doubt she has enough power to continually loop time. After all, Gwyn was supposed to have the most powerful soul, so only he could do that. Which I doubt.
    So there must be some ultra-powerful uber-source affecting all of DkS universe. Which means that the other lands would be looping in time as well.

    Not necessarily. THe entire "looping" process could be due to the the world being run by destiny, as I supported with evidence last page or so. Your character goes through the first game and doesn't complete destiny the way it was supposed to, so is sent back to do it over.

    If we assume destiny exists, then there is no cause and effect in dark souls. The universe is already decided, time isn't linear. It would be far more likely that instead of looping ALL of time, the PC is instead placed in a sort of "pocket dimension" that loops and where time runs much more quickly. Or perhaps you are "shoved up" a dimension, then pushed backwards in time before sinking back to the third dimension.

    Either way, it presents an alternative that doesn't rely on the entire universe freezing and repeating.
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    Post by Anchises Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:55 pm

    I just want to know why Gary keeps ending up as the champion when I beat him every time I go through the elite four.
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    Post by Shkar Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:37 pm

    I can't believe it was staring at us straight in the eye for so long! So many hints, too many to count and explain, yet there the whole time. And the final bit of proof was in the most unlikely of places all along! Yes indeed, if we are in a time link because the endings are not right then I have figured out what the ending MUST be, I have figured out why both endings are wrong morally, and I have figured out a deep logical puzzle of the story!

    The Key to the Depths was NOT just the key to the area, but the key to depths of the STORY! Behold:

    "Key opening the door from the lower Undead Burg to the Depths.
    Those banished from the Undead Burg eke out their existence in the Depths, a damp lair with no trace of sunlight. Nearly half of the Depths form a perilous flooded labyrinth."

    I have bolded the important part for your convenience, now just THINK of it! What do you need in order to banish someone? You need to be able to THINK! To act on your own ideas and opinions. You require the morality to determine what is right and is wrong and the rationality to determine what to do to enforce those beliefs. You need SENTIENCE! Yet the only inhabitants of the Undead Burg that we see are mindless hollows and a few insane merchants. A couple of insane, VALUABLE merchants who APPEAR to be hollow, and an entire CITY of hollows! The ONLY people who could banish people from the burg are the hollows.

    Hollows are banishing people, which means they have thought and morality and reason! They are "living", thinking, FEELING "humans"! Yet no matter which serpent you side with, Anastacia says that your actions will end the undead curse! The Dark Sign fades away and it's power is broken, which is good news for the uninfected humans but NOT for the entire CITIES full of the "mindless" hollows! There is only ONE result of the endings and it is this: complete and total GENOCIDE of an entire species. Whether you link the flame or let it die, the biggest result of your actions is the death of thousands of people.

    THAT is why both serpents are wrong. THAT is why both endings are morally "evil"! Time is being rewound again and again because our characters keep committing global genocide!
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    Post by DoughGuy Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:41 pm

    You sound very much like Acidic at the start of that post.
    But hen look at it this way, one one hadn you're commiting global genocide. On the other you're allowing the conituation of the undead curse, dooming thousands to a life of torture, and being responsible for the hundreds of humans the hollows kill.
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    Post by Shkar Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:51 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:You sound very much like Acidic at the start of that post.
    But hen look at it this way, one one hadn you're commiting global genocide. On the other you're allowing the conituation of the undead curse, dooming thousands to a life of torture, and being responsible for the hundreds of humans the hollows kill.

    We are never actually shown or hear about hollows killing any humans. So far as I can recall, none of the NPCs even mention non-hollows dying to hollows. Sure, some of them mention you going hollow when you attack them, but that has to be more of an insult or such, because we never see hollows actually leave their area or anything.

    The hollows you see in the asylum at the start are passive (the very first ones that is), right up until the Asylum Demon attacks you. Perhaps the hollows have some kind of hive mind and something about you disturbs or is threatening to them.
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    Post by DoughGuy Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:55 pm

    What about the entirety of the burg? I've theorised, based on Acidic's cynaclism theory of hollowing, that a hollow's last thought are what drive it during its hollowing. So the passive ones at the start are all "No hope is left, Im gonna spend forever here" while the hostile ones are "must fight my way out, no matter how many times I die".
    I see it as a given, that if the hollows are shipped off to an abandoned asylum they are dangerous to othre humans.

    I'll just point out Im not arguing against your idea, it makes sense, I'm trying to figure out how the other option, the continuation of the dark sign, is any better.
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    Post by Shkar Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:03 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:What about the entirety of the burg? I've theorised, based on Acidic's cynaclism theory of hollowing, that a hollow's last thought are what drive it during its hollowing. So the passive ones at the start are all "No hope is left, Im gonna spend forever here" while the hostile ones are "must fight my way out, no matter how many times I die".
    I see it as a given, that if the hollows are shipped off to an abandoned asylum they are dangerous to othre humans.

    I'll just point out Im not arguing against your idea, it makes sense, I'm trying to figure out how the other option, the continuation of the dark sign, is any better.

    The passive ones are NOT in cells! They got out of their cells, why on EARTH would they have no hope! If the hostile ones have the kind of resolve you talked about they WOULDN'T have gone hollow by Acidic's theory!

    It doesn't say that they ship off hollows to the north, it says they ship off UNDEAD, and the undead do NOT start as hollows (unless it's only the rare individual that is immune to the insanity of undeath, which is a possibility nobody has considered...). So if the carriers of the dark sign start off as the kind of undead as the NPC's, the only solution is that they were shipped off because of FEAR! Humanity has ALWAYS feared people who are different, whether it was because of religion, race, or any other possibility. Why should the Dark Souls humans be any different?
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    Post by DoughGuy Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:09 pm

    Your caps use makes you sound angry :shock:
    They are still stuck in an abandoned asylum, with no way off, being prevented from leaving by a massive demon.
    The tone was correct, by "must fight my way out" it was meant to be in a really depressed sound, as if they are giving up but they have to keep doing this. They've lost the will to do it but hey cant do anything else. They know wthey wont succeed bu they keep trying.

    You're correct there. However I still think there would be a precedent. They wouldn't just start shipping undead off to an asylum, they would have studied them, tried to tak etheir secrets. This may have driven the first undead inasne, made them hollow and they attacked people. So they started shipping these dangerous undead off. Then any further undead would hide their darksign, try to survive while hunted down. Classsic underground resistance groups, and as they lose control they go hollow.
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    Post by Shkar Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:16 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:Your caps use makes you sound angry :shock:
    They are still stuck in an abandoned asylum, with no way off, being prevented from leaving by a massive demon.
    The tone was correct, by "must fight my way out" it was meant to be in a really depressed sound, as if they are giving up but they have to keep doing this. They've lost the will to do it but hey cant do anything else. They know wthey wont succeed bu they keep trying.

    You're correct there. However I still think there would be a precedent. They wouldn't just start shipping undead off to an asylum, they would have studied them, tried to tak etheir secrets. This may have driven the first undead inasne, made them hollow and they attacked people. So they started shipping these dangerous undead off. Then any further undead would hide their darksign, try to survive while hunted down. Classsic underground resistance groups, and as they lose control they go hollow.

    Yes, SOME undead would have attack humans, but some humans do that as well! We aren't talking about a modern society of science and learning, but a medevil society of faith and unknowns. All they have is their life and their faith, and when the rules start breaking and the dead start walking, you have already ripped apart their entire world. Religion has caused some of the most biased and hateful responses to differences throughout time, and that's WITHOUT the dead starting to walk!

    Also, the caps are excitement, not anger. I feel like the entire storyline has started combining into a whole to reveal some deep answer or secret, and I feel like I am on the verge of discovering something...
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    Post by Federally Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:17 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:What about the entirety of the burg? I've theorised, based on Acidic's cynaclism theory of hollowing, that a hollow's last thought are what drive it during its hollowing. So the passive ones at the start are all "No hope is left, Im gonna spend forever here" while the hostile ones are "must fight my way out, no matter how many times I die".
    I see it as a given, that if the hollows are shipped off to an abandoned asylum they are dangerous to othre humans.

    I'll just point out Im not arguing against your idea, it makes sense, I'm trying to figure out how the other option, the continuation of the dark sign, is any better.

    I think there is a difference here in what them being 'dangerous' could mean. Will they attack people who come to their city? Yes, so they are dangerous in that sense. But will they organize and attack humans outside their walls? Doesn't seem like it.

    Also what about the party from Thorolund? They are undead, however they weren't banished to Lordran they came there on a mission. Which means not all undead are sent to the asylum, at least not all "countries" send their undead to the asylum or to Lordran.

    Seems to me undead are sent away by some countries due to the risk they pose if they go hollow, though the exact nature of that risk isn't certain other then they will probably strike out against the humans around them.
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    Post by DoughGuy Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:21 pm

    @Fed
    Reah and her people were part of the WoW. Its specifically stated the WoW sends its undead on mission to Lordran, kinda like suicide missions.
    Like I said there must be a precedent. At some point hollows attacked humans.
    @Shkar The religious point is something. But as I said in time undead will start hiding, trying to escape being sent away. Eventualy a few go hollow while hiding and attack.
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    Post by Shkar Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:27 pm

    Yes, that does seem like something that would happen, but there is no evidence to support it. Who is to say that hollows would attack if you WEREN'T "invading" their territory? They don't attack other hollows, they don't attack the natural wildlife, they don't attack NPC's. The ONLY person they attack in the game is YOU.
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    Post by DoughGuy Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:31 pm

    You know I was thinking about that earlier, what if they're being put against you? Directed to attack you if you come near?
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    Post by Shkar Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:43 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:You know I was thinking about that earlier, what if they're being put against you? Directed to attack you if you come near?

    Or maybe, just maybe there is something about YOU that they can feel and just feels "evil" or "hostile". Like, say, the guy who's in a continuous time loop and/or keeps murdering them to get closer to his goal of complete genocide?
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    Post by DoughGuy Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:48 pm

    Hey I never asked for this. I just wanted to hug them. Alternatively they could be seeing this http://tinyurl.com/738ccvl
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    Post by Shkar Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:59 pm

    Thanks for posting that, I hadn't heard they had released it, but are you out of rebuttals?
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    Post by DoughGuy Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:02 am

    Oh no I just figured it was time for a derail.
    Your argument is contradictory as earlier you stated that only you had the memories of this repeating cycle. To have the undead notice it would mean that they too have memories of the repeating cycle.
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    Post by Shkar Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:10 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Oh no I just figured it was time for a derail.
    Your argument is contradictory as earlier you stated that only you had the memories of this repeating cycle. To have the undead notice it would mean that they too have memories of the repeating cycle.

    No no no, you misunderstood. I'm NOT saying they remember you. I'm saying that perhaps there is a side effect of the time aspect that makes the hollows hate you for some reason. As in, an aura of sheer power that makes you stand out to the hollows as the greatest threat to them.
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    Post by Wade_Wilson Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:45 am

    I always thought enemies in-game could sense that you were the dark lord, due to your ability to retain your mind and humanity.
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    Post by dianaduh Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:31 pm

    Shkar wrote:Time isn't in flux; it's in a loop. Someone or something isn't satisfied with the way the game takes place. The universe, destiny, or even time itself doesn't like how the story ends so it sends you back in time to try it again. It's only you. You're character keeps it's memories (spells and what-not), but nobody else remembers. Some great and/or almighty "being" has trapped you in a continuous loop in time until you can successfully complete the story in the pattern it wants.
    DoughGuy wrote:I like the idea, it means a third ending would prevent
    you going into NG+. The thing is was that what the designers had in
    mind? Or is it just a way of challenging you more? Is it a game
    mechanic, or a story one?

    May this be related to the pendant?

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