The Story Behind: How and Why

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    DoughGuy
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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:55 pm

    What about the entirety of the burg? I've theorised, based on Acidic's cynaclism theory of hollowing, that a hollow's last thought are what drive it during its hollowing. So the passive ones at the start are all "No hope is left, Im gonna spend forever here" while the hostile ones are "must fight my way out, no matter how many times I die".
    I see it as a given, that if the hollows are shipped off to an abandoned asylum they are dangerous to othre humans.

    I'll just point out Im not arguing against your idea, it makes sense, I'm trying to figure out how the other option, the continuation of the dark sign, is any better.


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Shkar on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:03 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:What about the entirety of the burg? I've theorised, based on Acidic's cynaclism theory of hollowing, that a hollow's last thought are what drive it during its hollowing. So the passive ones at the start are all "No hope is left, Im gonna spend forever here" while the hostile ones are "must fight my way out, no matter how many times I die".
    I see it as a given, that if the hollows are shipped off to an abandoned asylum they are dangerous to othre humans.

    I'll just point out Im not arguing against your idea, it makes sense, I'm trying to figure out how the other option, the continuation of the dark sign, is any better.

    The passive ones are NOT in cells! They got out of their cells, why on EARTH would they have no hope! If the hostile ones have the kind of resolve you talked about they WOULDN'T have gone hollow by Acidic's theory!

    It doesn't say that they ship off hollows to the north, it says they ship off UNDEAD, and the undead do NOT start as hollows (unless it's only the rare individual that is immune to the insanity of undeath, which is a possibility nobody has considered...). So if the carriers of the dark sign start off as the kind of undead as the NPC's, the only solution is that they were shipped off because of FEAR! Humanity has ALWAYS feared people who are different, whether it was because of religion, race, or any other possibility. Why should the Dark Souls humans be any different?


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:09 pm

    Your caps use makes you sound angry :shock:
    They are still stuck in an abandoned asylum, with no way off, being prevented from leaving by a massive demon.
    The tone was correct, by "must fight my way out" it was meant to be in a really depressed sound, as if they are giving up but they have to keep doing this. They've lost the will to do it but hey cant do anything else. They know wthey wont succeed bu they keep trying.

    You're correct there. However I still think there would be a precedent. They wouldn't just start shipping undead off to an asylum, they would have studied them, tried to tak etheir secrets. This may have driven the first undead inasne, made them hollow and they attacked people. So they started shipping these dangerous undead off. Then any further undead would hide their darksign, try to survive while hunted down. Classsic underground resistance groups, and as they lose control they go hollow.


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Shkar on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:16 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:Your caps use makes you sound angry :shock:
    They are still stuck in an abandoned asylum, with no way off, being prevented from leaving by a massive demon.
    The tone was correct, by "must fight my way out" it was meant to be in a really depressed sound, as if they are giving up but they have to keep doing this. They've lost the will to do it but hey cant do anything else. They know wthey wont succeed bu they keep trying.

    You're correct there. However I still think there would be a precedent. They wouldn't just start shipping undead off to an asylum, they would have studied them, tried to tak etheir secrets. This may have driven the first undead inasne, made them hollow and they attacked people. So they started shipping these dangerous undead off. Then any further undead would hide their darksign, try to survive while hunted down. Classsic underground resistance groups, and as they lose control they go hollow.

    Yes, SOME undead would have attack humans, but some humans do that as well! We aren't talking about a modern society of science and learning, but a medevil society of faith and unknowns. All they have is their life and their faith, and when the rules start breaking and the dead start walking, you have already ripped apart their entire world. Religion has caused some of the most biased and hateful responses to differences throughout time, and that's WITHOUT the dead starting to walk!

    Also, the caps are excitement, not anger. I feel like the entire storyline has started combining into a whole to reveal some deep answer or secret, and I feel like I am on the verge of discovering something...


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Federally on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:17 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:What about the entirety of the burg? I've theorised, based on Acidic's cynaclism theory of hollowing, that a hollow's last thought are what drive it during its hollowing. So the passive ones at the start are all "No hope is left, Im gonna spend forever here" while the hostile ones are "must fight my way out, no matter how many times I die".
    I see it as a given, that if the hollows are shipped off to an abandoned asylum they are dangerous to othre humans.

    I'll just point out Im not arguing against your idea, it makes sense, I'm trying to figure out how the other option, the continuation of the dark sign, is any better.

    I think there is a difference here in what them being 'dangerous' could mean. Will they attack people who come to their city? Yes, so they are dangerous in that sense. But will they organize and attack humans outside their walls? Doesn't seem like it.

    Also what about the party from Thorolund? They are undead, however they weren't banished to Lordran they came there on a mission. Which means not all undead are sent to the asylum, at least not all "countries" send their undead to the asylum or to Lordran.

    Seems to me undead are sent away by some countries due to the risk they pose if they go hollow, though the exact nature of that risk isn't certain other then they will probably strike out against the humans around them.


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:21 pm

    @Fed
    Reah and her people were part of the WoW. Its specifically stated the WoW sends its undead on mission to Lordran, kinda like suicide missions.
    Like I said there must be a precedent. At some point hollows attacked humans.
    @Shkar The religious point is something. But as I said in time undead will start hiding, trying to escape being sent away. Eventualy a few go hollow while hiding and attack.


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Shkar on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:27 pm

    Yes, that does seem like something that would happen, but there is no evidence to support it. Who is to say that hollows would attack if you WEREN'T "invading" their territory? They don't attack other hollows, they don't attack the natural wildlife, they don't attack NPC's. The ONLY person they attack in the game is YOU.


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:31 pm

    You know I was thinking about that earlier, what if they're being put against you? Directed to attack you if you come near?


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Shkar on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:43 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:You know I was thinking about that earlier, what if they're being put against you? Directed to attack you if you come near?

    Or maybe, just maybe there is something about YOU that they can feel and just feels "evil" or "hostile". Like, say, the guy who's in a continuous time loop and/or keeps murdering them to get closer to his goal of complete genocide?


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:48 pm

    Hey I never asked for this. I just wanted to hug them. Alternatively they could be seeing this http://tinyurl.com/738ccvl


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Shkar on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:59 pm

    Thanks for posting that, I hadn't heard they had released it, but are you out of rebuttals?


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:02 am

    Oh no I just figured it was time for a derail.
    Your argument is contradictory as earlier you stated that only you had the memories of this repeating cycle. To have the undead notice it would mean that they too have memories of the repeating cycle.


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Shkar on Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:10 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Oh no I just figured it was time for a derail.
    Your argument is contradictory as earlier you stated that only you had the memories of this repeating cycle. To have the undead notice it would mean that they too have memories of the repeating cycle.

    No no no, you misunderstood. I'm NOT saying they remember you. I'm saying that perhaps there is a side effect of the time aspect that makes the hollows hate you for some reason. As in, an aura of sheer power that makes you stand out to the hollows as the greatest threat to them.


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:45 am

    I always thought enemies in-game could sense that you were the dark lord, due to your ability to retain your mind and humanity.


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by dianaduh on Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:31 pm

    Shkar wrote:Time isn't in flux; it's in a loop. Someone or something isn't satisfied with the way the game takes place. The universe, destiny, or even time itself doesn't like how the story ends so it sends you back in time to try it again. It's only you. You're character keeps it's memories (spells and what-not), but nobody else remembers. Some great and/or almighty "being" has trapped you in a continuous loop in time until you can successfully complete the story in the pattern it wants.
    DoughGuy wrote:I like the idea, it means a third ending would prevent
    you going into NG+. The thing is was that what the designers had in
    mind? Or is it just a way of challenging you more? Is it a game
    mechanic, or a story one?

    May this be related to the pendant?
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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Purity on Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:37 am

    Shkar wrote:...

    I have bolded the important part for your convenience, now just THINK of it! What do you need in order to banish someone? You need to be able to THINK! To act on your own ideas and opinions. You require the morality to determine what is right and is wrong and the rationality to determine what to do to enforce those beliefs. You need SENTIENCE! Yet the only inhabitants of the Undead Burg that we see are mindless hollows and a few insane merchants. A couple of insane, VALUABLE merchants who APPEAR to be hollow, and an entire CITY of hollows! The ONLY people who could banish people from the burg are the hollows.


    Hollows are banishing people, which means they have thought and morality and reason! They are "living", thinking, FEELING "humans"! Yet no matter which serpent you side with, Anastacia says that your actions will end the undead curse! The Dark Sign fades away and it's power is broken, which is good news for the uninfected humans but NOT for the entire CITIES full of the "mindless" hollows! There is only ONE result of the endings and it is this: complete and total GENOCIDE of an entire species. Whether you link the flame or let it die, the biggest result of your actions is the death of thousands of people.

    THAT is why both serpents are wrong. THAT is why both endings are morally "evil"! Time is being rewound again and again because our characters keep committing global genocide!

    I think you might be overlooking something. You're basing all that on the Key to the Depths description, but nowhere does it say the undead were the ones banishing other undead.

    If you read the description of the other key you posted:

    "Key to the sewer chamber in the Depths.
    In any community, a few bad apples are sure to exhibit insatiable greed. If they were turned Undead, and banished to the Depths, would they reconsider their ways?
    Use this key to see for yourself."

    I don't think they were banishing nor judging anyone. The way I see it, Humans were banishing them. Then eventually everyone went hollow.



    On the other topic, about Undead not attacking other humans.. Hadn't Laurentius been captured by them? And correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall any sane NPC sitting close to undead so you can't say they wouldn't attack them. Solaire is at one time, but those undeads don't attack you either.

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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by samster628 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:17 pm

    Dead thread sad

    methinks

    The curse of the undead has a lot to answer for.


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    Re: The Story Behind: How and Why

    Post by Purity on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:13 pm

    Nice, amazing digging.

    I did look at the dates. Saw "28" and thought "two days ago".. Oh well. Just saw ENB saying that key description was a translation error in one of his videos too. Oh well.

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    Leo ring!!

    Post by Carl-the-Chemist on Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:34 pm

    Just curious....., i was reading all my item discriptions to get a sence of what the pendant might be for when i read the leo rings discription. It mentions a spear splitting a boulder in two...could this actually be somewhere in the game..a boulder, while wearing the leo ring and perhaps a specific spear aswell.....i dunno, thought i just shout it out anyhooser!! got me thinkin though!! winking

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