which is harder

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    dark souls or demon souls

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    TehInfamousAmos
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    Re: which is harder

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:45 am

    ^^ I do bro... nvm - it is pointless attempting to win this debate because we are both stubborn and will stick to our opinions

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    Re: which is harder

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:53 am

    I guess different people can see the same things differently. And, you know what, that's just fine.

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    Re: which is harder

    Post by BoilerFan8472 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:12 am

    Demon's souls just is harder. I still get get killed and it's not because I fell of a ledge, it's because a mob can still kill you in two or three hits.

    Dark souls also just doesn't give that sense of danger that Demon's does...


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:15 am

    What everyone is forgetting is that the reason Demon Souls felt harder is that it was the first of it's kind. It's not by any means harder that Darks. All of the Bosses you could pretty much trade blows with and come out a winner. Or use a hypemode and kill them in seconds. The reason everyone think Demons was harder is because we had to learn it from scratch, and it left an impression on us. Darks is by far a more difficult game as they limited healing, sure there are bonfires now but they only consist of a save point and a way to refill our estus. As well as they made it more of an open world. It is so easy to head into an area that you are not prepared for. How many of us found the graveyard first and died horrible to those OP skeletons 50 times before we looked for a different way? I know I did.

    And what about Bed of Chaos? All I hear is people complaining about how hard it is. I personally have never had issues with it as there is an easy way to do him if you figure it out, but I bet that it has killed more people that all of Demon Souls bosses combined.

    I completed Demons easily and considered myself a good player, not great but good. But i got stomped more than a few times in Darks. Darks is by far a harder game, but as most of us had a stepping stone before we played Darks there was less of a learning curve for us.

    When you read all the posts here and look at them objectively, the thing people say the most about Demons is how the atmosphere was so much better, and I do agree with that. But atmoshpere does not make a game harder, it only makes it more memorable.

    Edited: to appease the masses


    Last edited by RagingDragon_69 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Reaperfan on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:21 am

    RagingDragon_69 wrote:When you read all the posts here and look at them objectively, the only thing people say about Demons is how the atmosphere was so much better, and I do agree with that. But atmoshpere does not make a game harder, it only makes it more memorable.

    I would like to think my first post pointed out some basic design aspects of Demon's Souls that disagrees with this statement. I will not debate very hard on this subject since I do admit that it comes down to personal preference, but please be more careful when using absolute terms like "all," since while we may not agree with your opinion doesn't mean you should ignore some of ours under a blanket statment.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:57 am

    @Amos you are stating pro veteran tactics there. If one sees it from a newbie perpective, I platinumed the game without knowing Second Chance was frigging useful. All those tactics you have mentioned are not obvious to the common newbie.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Yarxov on Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:02 pm

    WyrmHero is right, we should only debate from a Blind viewpoint, as in someone who would only figure the game out by his/herself on a first playthrough. (first is important)
    But dont go waving it around how good at it you were from day 1, you arent the majority of players.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Reaperfan on Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:19 pm

    Yarxov wrote:WyrmHero is right, we should only debate from a Blind viewpoint, as in someone who would only figure the game out by his/herself on a first playthrough. (first is important)
    But dont go waving it around how good at it you were from day 1, you arent the majority of players.

    +1 for truth happy


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by BoilerFan8472 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:32 pm

    Dark Souls almost no bosses gave me trouble on my first playthorugh, at most i died 3-5 times on the harder ones.(O&S and four kings) Demon 's Souls bosses that gave me trouble on the first play through were, flamelurker, maneater, fool's idol, adjucator, and false king. I died at least 20 times on flamelurker alone.

    That's just my personal experience but i can imagine most people have similar stories.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:41 pm

    Allant is harder than every boss in Dark Souls.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by BoilerFan8472 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:52 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:Allant is harder than every boss in Dark Souls.

    he's cheap on Ng+ with warding...

    my first NG though yes he is way harder than every boss


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:01 pm

    I've done this analysis before from an objective viewpoint, and I know some may not agree with my opinions, but I'll share anyway.

    I overall give the tip to Dark Souls as the single player experience as being more difficult. This is due to me that the earlier bosses, and bosses in general (with the exceptions of Flamelurker and Allant) are more difficult to get past for the newer player and thus make the experience more challenging.

    To me though, they are of very similar difficulty, which is NATURAL, it's built into the game with a progression curve. However in Dark Souls, this is simply a tiny bit steeper.

    Demon's for me however, has more difficult enemies, not due to AI perse but the lack of poise and variability from tendency causes them to be more challenging, as well as more difficult to BS (though I neglect this for newer players). The layout of the levels is also a little more difficult to due to a greater length, but still a similar style to the Dark souls areas (even if Tomb of the giants would beg to disagree).

    For me though, Dark soul's poise factor can cause the game to be easy, but many enemies break poise well and all bosses do. In terms of how killable things are on Demon's compared to Dark using say, starting equipment (upgraded appropriately), there is little difference for a newer player. However the bosses are far more challenging I would say than Demon's. Bosses such as dirty colossus and the armoured spider fall in face of bosses like Quelaag and Nito, who I chose being their rather obvious Dark Souls reincarnations.

    Overall, I would argue general mobs and areas are slightly more difficult in Demons (though this can vary), but Dark has the far more challenging boss encounters and this overall makes Dark Souls the more difficult game.

    Edit: Also healing/magic systems. Things like having 99 full moon grass (I got this by end of playthrough without trying) or MP regen items, second chance, massive HP regen and other things available to you, even on a blind playthrough, you can amass items that trivialise the whole experience.

    The online aspect for me would change my approach, however


    Last edited by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by TheBigLebowski on Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:11 pm

    TehInfamousAmos wrote:^^ I do bro... nvm - it is pointless attempting to win this debate because we are both stubborn and will stick to our opinions

    On a random note:

    Suddenly, a wild chess game appears.
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    Poll is on my side. silly
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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Reaperfan on Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:21 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Wall of text

    Quote edited for brevity winking

    Do you really need more +1's? Thank you for providing the most reasonable defense of Dark Souls in this thread so far (though I still respectfully disagree silly).

    Though I will point out, that while they may be similar in theme, in practice the Armor Spider and Quelaag have very little in common. In terms of actual combat, I would actually say Quelaag and Flamelurker are more comparable bosses (both are very aggressive to the player and primarily rely on melee, while also utilizing strong AoE).


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:39 pm

    I don't think Quelaag and Flamelurker are fair to compare though really, Flamelurker is far further along the intended progression curve than Quelaag in my opinion, and as a result it's much more aggressive, faster, stronger and uses it's devastating AoE attacks more regularly, rather than quelaag using them as a counter measure.

    Also, no fishing for +1s at all! I just pretty much summed up my thoughts of difficulty between the two games I presented straight after my first playthrough of Demon's Souls, so I didn't have to think too hard about it silly


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:41 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:I don't think Quelaag and Flamelurker are fair to compare though really, Flamelurker is far further along the intended progression curve than Quelaag in my opinion, and as a result it's much more aggressive, faster, stronger and uses it's devastating AoE attacks more regularly, rather than quelaag using them as a counter measure.

    Also, no fishing for +1s at all! I just pretty much summed up my thoughts of difficulty between the two games I presented straight after my first playthrough of Demon's Souls, so I didn't have to think too hard about it silly

    You played Dark Souls first right? I believe that affects your POV and thus your analysis. I disagree with you, the Armor Spider was a hard boss, most thoughts of new players when they see it is to "get close". At the start of the fight, the Spider shoots an unblockable (yet dodgable) projectile made of web that slows you down, and then continues to spam fireballs.

    When you get to her, she attacks you with those big kind-of-claws that most of the time breaks your guard, and does a lot of damage if you don't block/dodge it.

    Also if you feel safe spamming and dodging, there is a time when she starts charging up a giant explosion attack which almost reaches the whole room and the only way to dodge it is to run to the entrance (which is a bit far).

    I know you experienced all of this (because you played it), but I just think that Demon's Souls was harder than Dark Souls.

    Of course Dirty Colossus was simple, but it had some tricks, like when he gets you with that bee swarm your health goes down quite fast, and you can't take them off unless you do something smart (which I'm not going to say silly), besides that it's a simple boss.

    But you can't use him to compare Dks and DS, it's like using Pinwheel to compare DkS with DS.

    Flamelurker it's a pain in the *** in NG+.

    Also keep in mind that magic was an easy way to play Demon's Souls so melee had a different approach (much more difficult).

    Dark Souls has a more balanced approach. And DkS has offline helping phantoms! (offline invaders are a joke)

    Valley of Defilement? It's way harder than that joke of Blighttown. Only hard (and not much) about Blighttown it's the falls (which already were in VoD), toxic darts (I admit it's a cool thing), and the bottom, Anyway in the bottom you get a BONFIRE, so if anything, the annoying thing about the bottom are those Infested Barbarians with rocks.

    4-1? Skeletons were resistant against everything except magic and blunt weapons. And both are very exclusive at the beginning of the game. Also you have a mini-boss half-way through the level to greet you.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:54 pm

    My armour spider boss fight was very nooby, just had my shield up unless I went in for a couple hits then back into the corner of the room, shield up. I had no idea you could dodge the fire attacks on my first go through demons lol, just because I made a meal of it doesn't mean it was harder than Quelaag (who I breezed first playthrough out of luck mostly).

    and okay, not dirty colossus.. leechmonger, storm king, maiden astrea, penetrator, old hero.. In my opinion I could list almost every boss in Demon's as less difficult because they all had soem sort of quirk to beat them, or their Dark Souls equivalent was just plain harder such as the gargoyles over maneaters.. They all had massive exploitable weaknesses that were intentionally put there to make them easier, and it did, a little too much in my opinion.

    Also the infinite almost healing made any challenge disappear unless you get 1 shotted, which for the average player who would never attempt a challenge run almost impossible. It's not like you using Pinwheel to compare DkS and DS, as there's just one boss like that, while the demon's collection in general are underwhelming. I'd argue due to many reasons the bosses are overall easier. Frankly it's not something debatable, the bosses themselves are an easier design to overcome before you even count in the magic/healing etc of Demons by virtue of them having these specific weaknesses, it's just fact.

    On your last point about levels, as I said I agree demon's levels are more challenging, but this is due pretty much only due to the lack of poise in crowds and greater length, which I could say is all but nullified by the bountiful healing resource; moon grass, but the fact remains at face value the levels and general mobs pose a greater threat in Demon's than Dark souls.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Reaperfan on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:00 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:or their Dark Souls equivalent was just plain harder such as the gargoyles over maneaters.

    You really just called the Bell Gargoyles harder than the Maneaters? :|


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:04 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:or their Dark Souls equivalent was just plain harder such as the gargoyles over maneaters.

    You really just called the Bell Gargoyles harder than the Maneaters? :|

    Yeah, for first time players, the gargoyles are more difficult than the maneaters, the equipment and experience you can have for maneaters far outweighs the admittedly simpler attacks of the gargoyles due to demon's completion system.

    I'm not basing the difficulty here simply on the premise of intrinsic challenge of a boss. Like I said, first playthrough and for new players, they'd struggle more with gargoyles I believe as you can equip yourself to the heavens by the time you get to the maneaters, and you can do almost an entire playthrough before doing them, the best thing you can have for the gargoyles is a drake sword or a +5 weapon.. It doesn't even compare.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by BoilerFan8472 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:07 pm

    maneaters for a first time player would still be harder I believe.

    i saved them for the end and they still gangbanged me about 10 times.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:09 pm

    I've seen the gargoyles kick the *** of me and my friends a lot more than that, I can assure you. Just to put it into timing I had clocked 15-20 hours of my first playthrough before beating the gargoyles first time, my friends had similar trouble.

    I know as a fact for you guys you probably got to them and won 1st time due to their simple moveset, it's the same way as I beat every demon's boss on my first or second try, doesn't mean I'm gonna go around saying Flamelurker is easier than iron golem because I beat it so quickly compared to the Dark souls bosses.


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by BoilerFan8472 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:12 pm

    I beat the gargoyles second try lol

    No one on here will ever change their opinions sooo DEMON'S SOULS IS HARDER!!!!


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:14 pm

    I feel like this is an apropos entry to this thread...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_45iQ1UHpA

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    Re: which is harder

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:14 pm

    For the record, I got Flamelurker 1st try, I'm rather proud of that to be honest considering the horrors I'd heard every time his name was mentioned by demon's vets. silly


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    Re: which is harder

    Post by BoilerFan8472 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:15 pm

    Flamelurker first try killed me at least 20 times...I thought that my game was broken lol


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