Fixing elemental weapons

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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:21 pm

    @Mugen

    No! Go to NG+7 and tell me how OP your melee weapons are! winking

    We have to remember that, although we've made Dark Souls into a PvP heavy (almost PvP-centric, in some of our minds) game, it's intended focus was supposed to be PvE. I'm sure, when From look at the balance, they'll consider PvE before PvP.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:24 pm

    Little baby blaine. Awwww. Ok, im going to now read that essay you just posted.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by GkMrBane on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:32 pm

    Well in response to the main topic I think that the result of going elemental should be that the stat requirments all require 1.5 more stat assignment than what their non elemental kin require like the Zwie requires 24 str and 10 dex in this version the it would require and extra 36 Str and 15 dex doing this would even the playing field a little more because by then people using non elementals would be doing around the same dmg as the Elemental people.

    what do you guys think about this idea?


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:36 pm

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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:37 pm

    @GkMrBane Itd force people to use a weapon with no scaling to have higher stat requirments. Thus making the elemental null, especially when a +15 would out damage an elemental anyway with ok scaling. If you kept the scaling with the elemental, then +15 would become null and void. Your theory forces the two to be exactly compared to each other in the same build. No matter what, in this case, one would become null and void.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:48 pm

    @BLA1NE I am suggesting that they no longer leave stat requirements static. Meaning that you may need 16 STR and 10 DEX for a regular Claymore, but maybe you need 20 STR, 16 DEX for a +10 or an elemental. Maybe make a stat requirement of 20 RES to use any elemental weapon. It would then be a leveling system without being a leveling system. It would effectively make you level up to use elemental weapons and such. No more +15 or maxed out weapons at level 10. It would also increase the difficulty. Imagine having to do a level 1 run with non-upgraded equipment because you don't have the stats. This would solve all the issues we currently have in the low level game balance.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:50 pm

    RagingDragon_69 wrote:@BLA1NE I am suggesting that they no longer leave stat requirements static. Meaning that you may need 16 STR and 10 DEX for a regular Claymore, but maybe you need 20 STR, 16 DEX for a +10 or an elemental. Maybe make a stat requirement of 20 RES to use any elemental weapon. It would then be a leveling system without being a leveling system. It would effectively make you level up to use elemental weapons and such. No more +15 or maxed out weapons at level 10. It would also increase the difficulty. Imagine having to do a level 1 run with non-upgraded equipment because you don't have the stats. This would solve all the issues we currently have in the low level game balance.
    That would ONLY work for non elemental upgrading.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:53 pm

    JoeBroski09 wrote:
    RagingDragon_69 wrote:@BLA1NE I am suggesting that they no longer leave stat requirements static. Meaning that you may need 16 STR and 10 DEX for a regular Claymore, but maybe you need 20 STR, 16 DEX for a +10 or an elemental. Maybe make a stat requirement of 20 RES to use any elemental weapon. It would then be a leveling system without being a leveling system. It would effectively make you level up to use elemental weapons and such. No more +15 or maxed out weapons at level 10. It would also increase the difficulty. Imagine having to do a level 1 run with non-upgraded equipment because you don't have the stats. This would solve all the issues we currently have in the low level game balance.
    That would ONLY work for non elemental upgrading.

    If you read my response you would see I also said add something like RES as a stat requirement for elemental....


    Last edited by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:53 pm

    That might become too complicated for the end-user, though. Imagine it's your first playthrough, you just got to Anor Londo, and you find the Giant Blacksmith. "Sweet," you have all the required titanite to upgrade your weapon to Lightning! You do it, and... "What do you mean I can't wield my weapon anymore? What am I going to do?!


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Buggy Virus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:58 pm

    GkMrBane wrote:Well in response to the main topic I think that the result of going elemental should be that the stat requirments all require 1.5 more stat assignment than what their non elemental kin require like the Zwie requires 24 str and 10 dex in this version the it would require and extra 36 Str and 15 dex doing this would even the playing field a little more because by then people using non elementals would be doing around the same dmg as the Elemental people.

    what do you guys think about this idea?

    The problem with this, is although it may seem like it is most directly fixing the problem, it actually misses it with alot of weapons. Although it would be harder for people at relatively low levels to use lightning weapons of the stronger and more unique weapons there would still be a plethora that at 1.5 stat requirements would be open for use for low level players.

    This would be weapons like clubs and starting class weapons.

    Also I just think my idea is more interesting while it gets the job done.

    In addition it keeps elemental weapons relevant after level 100.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:58 pm

    Oh I agree it would be a bit more complicated. Sadly there is no easy answer to the fix. I believe this would be the most balanced way to accomplish this though. You would have to actively level to use the gear you wanted, and would eliminate low level greifing. It would also level out PVP and make it more unique as people would have to adjust their stats based on the gear they want to use. No more level 20 guy with a lightneing rapier against a level 20 guy with drake's And it would still allow every upgrade path to be feasable without nerfing everything.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:59 pm

    RagingDragon_69 wrote:
    JoeBroski09 wrote:
    RagingDragon_69 wrote:@BLA1NE I am suggesting that they no longer leave stat requirements static. Meaning that you may need 16 STR and 10 DEX for a regular Claymore, but maybe you need 20 STR, 16 DEX for a +10 or an elemental. Maybe make a stat requirement of 20 RES to use any elemental weapon. It would then be a leveling system without being a leveling system. It would effectively make you level up to use elemental weapons and such. No more +15 or maxed out weapons at level 10. It would also increase the difficulty. Imagine having to do a level 1 run with non-upgraded equipment because you don't have the stats. This would solve all the issues we currently have in the low level game balance.
    That would ONLY work for non elemental upgrading.

    If you read my response you would see I also said add something like RES as a stat requirement for elemental....
    ohh, sorry. My brain didnt register the RES as what you were meaninf it to be when i skimmed it.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:01 pm

    RagingDragon_69 wrote:Oh I agree it would be a bit more complicated. Sadly there is no easy answer to the fix. I believe this would be the most balanced way to accomplish this though. You would have to actively level to use the gear you wanted, and would eliminate low level greifing. It would also level out PVP and make it more unique as people would have to adjust their stats based on the gear they want to use. No more level 20 guy with a lightneing rapier against a level 20 guy with drake's And it would still allow every upgrade path to be feasable without nerfing everything.
    the elemental doesnt need to be nerfed in the original OP. Just damage taken to the user. And that means to get the +5, you'd be risking your life unless you upgraded your character as well


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:02 pm

    Buggy Virus wrote:
    GkMrBane wrote:Well in response to the main topic I think that the result of going elemental should be that the stat requirments all require 1.5 more stat assignment than what their non elemental kin require like the Zwie requires 24 str and 10 dex in this version the it would require and extra 36 Str and 15 dex doing this would even the playing field a little more because by then people using non elementals would be doing around the same dmg as the Elemental people.

    what do you guys think about this idea?

    The problem with this, is although it may seem like it is most directly fixing the problem, it actually misses it with alot of weapons. Although it would be harder for people at relatively low levels to use lightning weapons of the stronger and more unique weapons there would still be a plethora that at 1.5 stat requirements would be open for use for low level players.

    This would be weapons like clubs and starting class weapons.

    Also I just think my idea is more interesting while it gets the job done.

    In addition it keeps elemental weapons relevant after level 100.

    I do totally agree with you Buggy that after 100 elemantal are pretty much useless, and somehow they need to be adjusted so they are viable at high levels. But i see this more of an issue with someone with base sats using a 500 AR weapon. Especially once the DLC comes out and we see a resurgence in the online populace of DS.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Buggy Virus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:04 pm

    @ Raging Dragon
    I get what you are saying. But also increasing the necessary stats as you upgrade a weapon pretty drastically changes the system from what it is now. The point of how it is now is your weapons are supposed to actually get stronger.

    The way you suggest orienting it would make it more along the lines as you need to level up for your weapons to deal more damage. Then the system of weapon upgrade paths becomes oriented around the way you invest your levels. With a system like that it would really restrict what weapons you could use in the end since you would need very specific levels for them.

    The scaling system as it is now is great, due to the fact that you aren't restricted from using a wide array of weapons, but they simply wouldn't be as effective.
    Also while you upgrade your weapons you get direct results, rather than thinking, "well, I leveled up, better get the weapon for my level."

    I like scaling and options more, and I think by drastically tweaking the current system is a better fix than completely overhauling it.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Buggy Virus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:10 pm

    RagingDragon_69 wrote:
    Buggy Virus wrote:
    GkMrBane wrote:Well in response to the main topic I think that the result of going elemental should be that the stat requirments all require 1.5 more stat assignment than what their non elemental kin require like the Zwie requires 24 str and 10 dex in this version the it would require and extra 36 Str and 15 dex doing this would even the playing field a little more because by then people using non elementals would be doing around the same dmg as the Elemental people.

    what do you guys think about this idea?

    The problem with this, is although it may seem like it is most directly fixing the problem, it actually misses it with alot of weapons. Although it would be harder for people at relatively low levels to use lightning weapons of the stronger and more unique weapons there would still be a plethora that at 1.5 stat requirements would be open for use for low level players.

    This would be weapons like clubs and starting class weapons.

    Also I just think my idea is more interesting while it gets the job done.

    In addition it keeps elemental weapons relevant after level 100.

    I do totally agree with you Buggy that after 100 elemantal are pretty much useless, and somehow they need to be adjusted so they are viable at high levels. But i see this more of an issue with someone with base sats using a 500 AR weapon. Especially once the DLC comes out and we see a resurgence in the online populace of DS.

    My original thoughts on the matter were actually, "Hmm, what if elemental weapons had a base resistance stat" and that's what this thread was going to be.

    But as I typed it I felt that it was a bit demanding to invest in resistance simply to get to use a certain class of weapons that doesn't even actively scale with it. Even if resistance still gave you poise it seemed a bit overly cumbersome a requirement.

    That's why I thought about it dealing damage back to the user.

    What I mean by the extent of the damage is a level 10 character using a +5 lightning weapon might have three to five swings, or if the damage was continual only about 30 seconds of using the weapon before the weapon itself killed them.

    This would make it completely unviable for the lower levels. Then with the resistance stat reworked to really counter the damage done to itself you would really need to invest in it and vitality. With the extent of damage dealt back to the user it would be really necessary to have that higher resistance and vitality, and thus force them to level up alot.

    It just seems to be a more elegant solution than slapping requirements on everything.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:17 pm

    Well thought out response Buggy, and agree it would be a lot of work to impliment something like this. As well as it would restict weapons based on stats to a greater degree than it already does. They could also just go to a straight scaling system across the board for everything, elemental included. Would make elemenal more viable at a higher level as the AR would increase with the stats, and would limit the damage of a low level toon with low stats.

    I also understand your point of view of making elemental weapons inflict damage on the user and gear to reduce it, but I feel as that would still allow people to cheat and bypass that system. Sure the gloves may weight 50 lbs, but toss on troll mask, havel ring, RoFoP and you could still wear the gloves and OHKO and be a low SL.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:19 pm

    By the way I am enjoying this conversation and everyones civility. No one has called someone a poopy head yet. lol!


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:22 pm

    I think to be honest they were made so that low level runs are not as crazy hard.. Though I agree that this is a problem.

    I would personally slightly increase the damage they do.. But I would make the requirements 150%-200% their normal value, depending on how high the requirements are normally. This way elemental weapon versions of the best weapons could not be used by low level, even some SL120 toons due to the massive stat requirement.

    This way even at higher level PvP, there is still a stat investment required. You cannot use a weapon and just vit gouge, or exploit the damage as a low level toon


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:26 pm

    RagingDragon_69 wrote:By the way I am enjoying this conversation and everyones civility. No one has called someone a poopy head yet. lol!
    poopy head. Oh well. Im gonna leave anyway. Work.

    Have fun poopy head lol!


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Buggy Virus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:29 pm

    RagingDragon_69 wrote:Well thought out response Buggy, and agree it would be a lot of work to impliment something like this. As well as it would restict weapons based on stats to a greater degree than it already does. They could also just go to a straight scaling system across the board for everything, elemental included. Would make elemenal more viable at a higher level as the AR would increase with the stats, and would limit the damage of a low level toon with low stats.

    I also understand your point of view of making elemental weapons inflict damage on the user and gear to reduce it, but I feel as that would still allow people to cheat and bypass that system. Sure the gloves may weight 50 lbs, but toss on troll mask, havel ring, RoFoP and you could still wear the gloves and OHKO and be a low SL.

    I'm hoping that the next soul game doesn't have gear that can be abused like that. My thoughts on how to fix gear weight it pretty complicated too and would deserve its own thread. But I think they could fix up the entire system.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:30 pm

    I agree with you Serious, that was the point I was trying to get across.

    But maybe this will clarify my stance. The max level is 700+ by being able to use every weapon by level 50 you are essentially making going to max level useless. By adding stricter requirements not only do we limit low level weapons by there is now a reason to level to access higher requirement weapons.

    In my opinion the reason people see stat requirements as a negative is due to the self imposed cap for PVP. And stat requirements would make 120 builds more difficult. But ultimately this is a PVE game with a dose of PVP added in. We as a community have turned this into a PVP game, it was not designed to be such a thing.


    Last edited by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:45 pm

    It's not so much because of the self-imposed cap, as it is the diminishing returns. SL710 is pretty useless, considering you'll have almost the same stats at a fraction of the SL if you spend your levels cautiously.

    This:
    http://tinyurl.com/7t5cly3
    Is 1/3 the level of:
    http://tinyurl.com/7h9bwrv
    But it's more around 90% of its effectiveness than 33%.

    The diminishing returns are so severe on Str and Dex scaling, that anything above 40 is virtually useless. So changing the equip requirements for elemental to 1.5 would have 2 effects:

    - Depriving low levels of an upgrade path that was viable (elemental) and only allowing them to use the one that's useless to them (regular) because they don't have the necessary stats to get good scaling.

    - Making elemental useless, because by the time your stats are high enough to use them, you'd be better off with the scaling version...

    That makes elemental completely useless. Low levels can't use them, high levels don't need them. That would require complete re-balancing of the weapons. Make regular have more base damage, so low levels can get some use out of them, and elemental be stronger to be able to compete with the scaling the regular path has at the higher levels.

    I don't think raising the stats requirements for elemental upgrade paths is a very good idea...


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:54 pm

    Oh I agree with the dimishing returns. There is only about 40 AR difference between my 120 and 200.

    But if you were to hit 40 on every stat that has diminshing returns you would be at SL 177 without any ATT. So technically it is a self imposed cap that the community has adopted. If the cap was based on diminishing returns the cap would be 200.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:59 pm

    I am not saying that the cap is wrong, everyone should play as they see fit and I enjoy my 120 build. I am just pointing out that the cap is actually based on community opinion, and on forcing people to choose stats and sacrifice others which allow for a variety of builds, as opposed to the actual dimishing returns.


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