Fixing elemental weapons

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    Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Buggy Virus on Thu May 31, 2012 6:57 pm

    Elemental weapons are cool in design; very strong base damage weapons
    that have no scaling, but due to this they are generally unfair. We all
    know why, the fact that very low level players can use them and get
    insane end game damage out of them, such as the lightning reinforced
    club, a lvl 1 weapon that can do upwards of 300 damage.

    What needs to be fixed for the next soul game is making it so these very
    powerful weapons can't be abused by low level toons. This would mean
    giving a reason why you need to be a higher level to use elemental
    weapons.

    They could be changed to scaling, but that is pointless as then what's the point of elemental weapons to any other paths.

    So the high base damage needs to be conserved.

    What I would suggest is elemental weapons dealing damage back towards
    the player due to the fact that they are inbued with this unstable
    energy, so merely holding them cause damage to the player.

    The damage caused to the player would either be constant or per swing
    like the chaos blade, and the higher reinforced the weapon and the
    higher its elemental damage the more damage it yields back to the
    player.

    This way to offset having a weapon that causes you damage you would need
    a high vitality, or resistance could be reworked to be drastically
    effective against the damage of elemental weapons inflicted on oneself.

    This would mean to use elemental weapons effectively you would need to
    throw a few levels into resistance and vitality, and as you made the
    weapon stronger you would need higher resistance and vitality to offset
    the more damage it does.

    Also special items, like insulating gauntlets that are very heavy, or
    magic scaling gauntlets could be introduced, so that magic or strength
    builds would have the opportunity to use elemental weapons.

    Along with this slight scaling could be added to the physical portion of
    the damage, and the elemental portion could have no cap to upgrading,
    simply the higher it got upgraded the damage dealt to the player would
    rise faster than the damage dealt. This way you could create insanely
    powered weapons that deal ridiculous damage back to yourself.

    But this would make elemental weapons even viable at upper levels,
    making them less of an unfair low level thing, to more of a reasonable
    path that is different from the rest.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu May 31, 2012 7:24 pm

    You're still blocked, so I have no idea what the post says, but elemental weapons arn't broken.
    I don't like them most of the time, they're unbuffable. But not broken, i kill elemental claymore users with nearly 2300 hp all the time, because its weak enough for a setup parry to not be a huge risk, I also can "poise stab" for the same reason. A dmb +15 claymore would be way more of a risk, it would 2shot me if i failed.

    Again, I don't like them, I'd prefer they weren't in the game, but they're not broken and so don't need fixing.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Buggy Virus on Thu May 31, 2012 7:28 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:You're still blocked, so I have no idea what the post says, but elemental weapons arn't broken.
    I don't like them most of the time, they're unbuffable. But not broken, i kill elemental claymore users with nearly 2300 hp all the time, because its weak enough for a setup parry to not be a huge risk, I also can "poise stab" for the same reason. A dmb +15 claymore would be way more of a risk, it would 2shot me if i failed.

    Again, I don't like them, I'd prefer they weren't in the game, but they're not broken and so don't need fixing.

    Wow, thanks for not reading my post and telling me I was wrong.

    I'll be sure to take into full account your post which I didn't bother reading either and incorporate your well developed opinion on my opinion into my own.

    Thanks for everything.

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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu May 31, 2012 7:38 pm

    That sounds like a great suggestion.

    Would kind of have the effect of making elemental weapons unusable for low levels... but that's the point! And they'd still have the Raw upgrade path--which would be another effect of the suggestion; making the Raw path viable.

    I like the extra-heavy insulating gear, too. That way higher level characters can negate the self-damage, but low-levels won't be able to.

    People would still be able to abuse low levels by making raw weapons and item-buffing, but it wouldn't be as bad as elemental weapons are now. And with this, elemental weapons could actually be made stronger, so they'd become an alternative viable path at higher levels. Because, as it is now, elemental is easily outdone by +15 at higher levels, and you can buff +15, making elemental virtually useless at that level. Vit gouged builds use them, but those are terrible! Vit-gouged elemental builds would become balanced Vit/End elemental builds instead, and they could compete on an almost even footing with regular builds... Sounds good to me.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Buggy Virus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:27 am

    Well the idea of insulating gear would be it stops a larger percentage of the damage, but still lets it through. Thus at higher levels it would be necessary to keep up with fast rising self damage.

    But thanks for the support.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by barrywilkins on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:35 am

    i really like this idea.

    hardmode: use pw with a +5 ascended flame.
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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Eolan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:57 am

    Hmm i dont agree simply because the balance was fine untill the bb glitch raised its ugly head. That and if i was a magic weapon maker id certainly insulate the handle happy
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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Eolan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:12 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:You're still blocked, so I have no idea what the post says, but elemental weapons arn't broken.
    I don't like them most of the time, they're unbuffable. But not broken, i kill elemental claymore users with nearly 2300 hp all the time, because its weak enough for a setup parry to not be a huge risk, I also can "poise stab" for the same reason. A dmb +15 claymore would be way more of a risk, it would 2shot me if i failed.

    Again, I don't like them, I'd prefer they weren't in the game, but they're not broken and so don't need fixing.


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    Last edited by Baal-Avatar on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Flaming Remarks are not Allowed in the Forums - Please Read Guidelines)
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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:41 am

    I kind of like this idea. A person could get a bunch of fire resistance to equip a fire weapon, making any element you choose to be YOUR element. Your character is BASED off of fire. That'd be awesome!

    PS: I think upgrading a weapon to whatever element will make the ENTIRE weapon covered in that element. Ohhh, a fully fire-covered weapon would look AWESOME, or lightning, or a glowing magic weapon or enchanted. It would look almost like it was buffed, but a bit different, in some way.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Yarxov on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:47 am

    @Buggy I like the ideas, especially resistance getting a real purpose now.
    Sorry for negative repping you, habit. and I didnt see your updated siggy. xD


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by RagingDragon_69 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:54 am

    I don't agree. What you see as an issue with elemental weapons is no such thing. The real issue is with the game balance and is the ability for a low level player to use ANY type of gear/weapon they have the stats for. If they want to fix this issue instead of a convoluted system, they should add level caps for gear. Easy peasy and poof no more level 1 griefers in troll masks with havels ring. 99% of RPG's already have this type of system in place as it prevents people from using OP weapons at low levels. Which can also ruin the game experience. This would also force people to level up.

    If you add some kind of gear to counter damage it will only be a week before the trolls find ways to either bypass it or to get it on low toons anyways.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Eolan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:03 pm

    If it wasn't for the bb glitch they would have to play through the game at low sl to get the elemental weapon, this is the kind of challenge which i think deserves them to have a weapon like that at a level like that. Kill the bb glitch and at least your dealing with a player whos worked hard to get it.
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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Yarxov on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:08 pm

    Its too late for that, they can just not install the update, duplicate the hell out of everything then go online.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:09 pm

    I think a 30% damage drop across all elemental weapons would be idea.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:10 pm

    Yarxov wrote:Its too late for that, they can just not install the update, duplicate the hell out of everything then go online.
    I have a friend who just recently did the dragon headstone glitch to make a pvp build sad He hasn't even beat the game! GAH! At least he realized he messed up the build haha! Dex faith build with no att. And he already updated.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:11 pm

    Wade_Wilson wrote:I think a 30% damage drop across all elemental weapons would be idea.
    what about what BLA1NE said? Elemental weapons just aren't viable at high levels. I think THIS would make them viable! AND it'd make the resistance stat viable!


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Eolan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:11 pm

    Hmm well i tell you one thing, there's a big rebalancer ojn the way with the dlc. They cant split the player base into two camps (lol as if some of us wont buy the dlc) so maybe fix the Glitch for the dlc content and have that be a restart of sorts.
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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by chaosrave on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:12 pm

    the reason people thing elementals are weak is because they have this notion that 125 is the pvp range where as the max lv is 3x as much... get 99 stats into your elemental's scaling and it will out damage its lightning and chaos counterparts


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Eolan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:18 pm

    chaosrave wrote:the reason people thing elementals are weak is because they have this notion that 125 is the pvp range where as the max lv is 3x as much... get 99 stats into your elemental's scaling and it will out damage its lightning and chaos counterparts

    The 125 level is based on diminishing returns and general player base. I think the max level is much higher, in the range of 700.
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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Buggy Virus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:06 pm

    RagingDragon_69 wrote:I don't agree. What you see as an issue with elemental weapons is no such thing. The real issue is with the game balance and is the ability for a low level player to use ANY type of gear/weapon they have the stats for. If they want to fix this issue instead of a convoluted system, they should add level caps for gear. Easy peasy and poof no more level 1 griefers in troll masks with havels ring. 99% of RPG's already have this type of system in place as it prevents people from using OP weapons at low levels. Which can also ruin the game experience. This would also force people to level up.

    If you add some kind of gear to counter damage it will only be a week before the trolls find ways to either bypass it or to get it on low toons anyways.

    The insulating gear was just a random musing. If gear that lessened the damage really just ruined the system and allowed really low level players to use them then I wouldn't really care if they weren't in at all. So just disregard that idea if you don't like it, but it isn't the main idea.

    The main idea is it doesn't cut off the option to use whatever gear you like, simply it isn't viable at a low level and is likely to end up killing yourself. This would mean it would only be useful for those who have invested enough levels into vitality or resistance, meaning you don't cut it off from the lower players, yet it is really only good later on, like most upgrade paths.

    I'm not going to get into low level toons using any gear effectively, because I have different thoughts on that. But the idea behind the insulating gear would be it wouldn't cancel the self damage completely, but rather only lessen it, and not by much either, maybe just 30%. Along with being super heavy it wouldn't really make sense unless you were a really high level with a really highly upgraded elemental weapon, because then 30% cut out of the damage inflicted back on you would be significant. But it would stay unviable for low level builds.

    And all in all, even if it didn't solve exploitation of these weapons, I still think it is a much more interesting upgrade path than the current one.

    Eolan wrote:If it wasn't for the bb glitch they would have to play
    through the game at low sl to get the elemental weapon, this is the kind
    of challenge which i think deserves them to have a weapon like that at a
    level like that. Kill the bb glitch and at least your dealing with a
    player whos worked hard to get it.

    People were abusing lightning weapons even before the BB glitch become well known.

    The problem is that up until lvl 50 the damage dealt is completely OP. My first invader toon was around lvl 38, and before the BB glitch, yet I was easily able to attain a lightning weapon. And I can safely account for how relatively powerful they are.

    I've also beaten the game at lvl 1, and I invaded a bit so I could get enough humanity for the lost Izalith shortcut. I didn't even use a fully upgraded elemental weapon, and still it was ridiculously powerful.

    The point is, even if the BB glitch isn't relevant, you shouldn't be able to abuse elemental weapons in invading low level players. This I think would solve that possibility, even if they got it legit.

    And besides, like I said before: "I still think it is a much more interesting upgrade path than the current one.


    Last edited by Buggy Virus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : That was weird)


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by Buggy Virus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:08 pm

    chaosrave wrote:the reason people thing elementals are weak is because they have this notion that 125 is the pvp range where as the max lv is 3x as much... get 99 stats into your elemental's scaling and it will out damage its lightning and chaos counterparts

    By elemental I meant lightning and fire, not divine and magic.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by mugenis4real on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:15 pm

    EVERYTHING IS OP! NERF IT ALL! NERF IT ALL! :x
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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:17 pm

    mugenis4real wrote:EVERYTHING IS OP! NERF IT ALL! NERF IT ALL! :x
    Seriously. Fights dont last long enough.


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:18 pm

    I felt like replying to everyone!

    @Eolan:

    The BB glitch isn't the only issue with elemental weapons. It's not hard at all to get a fully upgraded elemental weapon an a toon of any level you want--just requires more determination than simply BB glitching. And hell, if there was no BB glitch and these griefers had to go through the game at low level to get their gear, it might actually improve their skills. Better a skill-less BB glitcher than a skilled griefer! silly


    @Raging Dragon

    I strongly dislike level requirements. Weapons already have them anyways, and they're rather well balanced as they are. Are you suggesting they add more level requirements for elemental weapons? I hate level requirements because they take a measure of choice out of making your build. It simply becomes: you can't, or you can, wield this piece of gear, just because you raised your stats arbitrarily. Buggy's suggestion, instead of taking your choice away, just adds consequence. You can wield it at low level, but there's a cost! I prefer that, by far.


    @Wade

    Elemental weapons have already been nerfed in the last patch. From only nerfed them up to +4, though, because they liked the way they were at +5. In other words, From are content with the way elemental weapons are. Who are we to disagree with them? winking And anyways, they're already easily outdone by regular weapons without buff--add a buff on top, and forget about elemental weapons! With Buggy's suggestion, elemental weapons would have severe drawbacks for lower levels, and manageable drawbacks for higher levels, so I think they could actually be made stronger instead of nerfed. That way they'd become another viable SL120 upgrade path. Because, does anyone other than Vit-gouged builds (and they suck) use anything other than the regular path for >SL120 characters? I don't think so...


    @Chaosrave

    I'm not sure what you were trying to say... Lightning and Fire/ Chaos are the elemental paths! If you were trying to say that regular, with proper scaling, will outdamage elemental, then no one will dispute you on that! By the way, the optimal scaling level is 40. 99 is a poor use of 59 extra levels. At 40, a regular weapon will easily outdamage its elemental counterparts. (Also, the max level, depending on your starting class, will be between 709 and 713.)


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    Re: Fixing elemental weapons

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:20 pm

    Not everyone. winking baby.


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