This has been bothering me for some time

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    SlakeMoth
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    This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by SlakeMoth on Fri May 11, 2012 1:35 pm

    Fact is I swap covenants nearly as often as I change my underwear (which is every day, in case you're interested). I'll join the Gravelord just to get hold of the sword, the Sunbro's for the Lightning Spear etc. etc. and I'm beginning to wonder if one day soon something apocalytical is going to happen to me in-game like all the various covenant npc's ganging up on me to teach me a lesson.

    Since I don't PvP at the mo' is remaining faithful to one covenant a big deal or can I continue on my merry way doing what I'm doing?


    Last edited by SlakeMoth on Sat May 12, 2012 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Fri May 11, 2012 1:37 pm

    Imo - my allegiances lie with myself - I pick the most suited covenant for me at the time


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by User on Fri May 11, 2012 1:40 pm

    Well, let me ask you sweetheart: Do you believe in Dark and sunlight? if so, than the two would see the extraction of both covenants not a betrayal, but instead a motivation for the ultimate goal.

    Besides, both covenants kill, and both are faithful... somewhat lol .

    Do not see one and another being a betrayal, if you respect both. You take the power of two covenants that you believe in. This is not a false dichotomy here, you can choose whatever ya like.
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri May 11, 2012 1:49 pm

    You may (or may not... that covenant's rules elude me) have the Darkmoon on your tail when you reverse hollowing. But other than that, you can switch covenants as much as you like. If you rank up, though, you'll lose your rank when you leave and return.


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by User on Fri May 11, 2012 1:51 pm

    Your rank is decreased by a half each leave. For example, if you put 40 humanity in, say, the chaos servants and you leave, it subtracts to 20 humanity. Goes by a half, for how many offers ya put in that covenant.

    For princess and way of white, the exception is that their are no consequences of halvement when rejoining... although betraying the princess guard by killing gwynevre as a princess guard leads to a loss of an estus rank, I have heard.
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri May 11, 2012 1:53 pm

    I agree that this bothers me, that I can jump any ship at any time without any penalty almost, and if I don't want penalty at all, use oswald to change covenants... Even then all I have to do is hack down the occasional Moonbro instead of Darkwraith when they come knocking.

    I would have liked there to be more reasons to be faithful to covenants, like unique weapons/armour and magics and abilities you can only use as part of the covenant, it would help vary up PvP too I think if they did that and balanced it well.


    Last edited by Serious_Much on Fri May 11, 2012 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by User on Fri May 11, 2012 1:54 pm

    Sunlight Spear, Princess Guard Miracles, and the such come to mind.
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri May 11, 2012 1:56 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:Sunlight Spear, Princess Guard Miracles, and the such come to mind.

    Thing is, most people don't use them because they're not useful enough. I mean stuff like you had to be in a sorcery covenant to get the crystal spells, a different covenant to use giants armour/O&S weapons, another to use pyromancy etc.

    There just needs to be measures so you can't just min/max your character with all the best stuff, a real sacrifice/gain sort of system that forces you to choose the stuff that best suits you and your character while forsaking other abilities and equipment.


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Rynn on Fri May 11, 2012 1:59 pm

    Kind of feels like they started doing that, then got lazy and said "*** it, too much coding". I always get that feeling with Dragon Covenant items, Sunlight Spears, and Gravelord Miracles. Chaos sometimes feels it should have been unique too.

    WoG for Way of White, with the Tranquil Walk of Peace being for the Gravelords (and IMHO Gravelords are really the only people that even have a justifiable use for the Miracle.)

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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by User on Fri May 11, 2012 2:01 pm

    Perhaps, when the new souls game comes, covenants will be more... integrated, in the world. More leashed, I should say.

    Of course, you must understand, and Dark Souls is a game based off of the removal of the leash. You have more control in travel and what to do, and descisions can be made more so than the last game. A free roam it is, and limits of covenants would be so.

    The Chaos Servants punish those who kill the Fair Lady as a servant with an Egg for a head. Other covenants have similar punishment. Darkwraiths is a removal of a merchant (Kaathe), Forest Hunters is removal of Merchant and safe guard, Way of White is exposure of other invaders more easier than before, and other punishments of the sort.

    Besides, you take that BACK! I use all of them when I can lol . Healing your partner, or swinging a spear, it ain't no matter. of course, I usually don't need spears, and others need heal, so...
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Rynn on Fri May 11, 2012 2:03 pm

    Buy 99 cracked orbs, then join the way of white.
    Maximum Trolling.

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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by User on Fri May 11, 2012 2:04 pm

    Or join the Gravelords after buying 99 cracked orbs. They come to you, or you come to them.

    That seems better.
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri May 11, 2012 2:07 pm

    The whole point of giving freedom is giving us something to do with it. In my mind there's no point in freedom to choose our equipment when everyone just ends up in the same gear, using the same spells..

    I think the freedom would be much more poignant and integral in the game if the covenants meant a REAL commitment, because it would make your choices mean something rather than just a shallow meaningless choice with almost no consequence.

    I hope next game if they bring back covenants in one way or another, they'll use the rewards system in the covenant better and make shackles in the system. It's a large part of the game, but for me it needs to be more pivotal if it's going to have any true effect.


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by User on Fri May 11, 2012 2:09 pm

    Well serious, I use my freedom differently than others. It shows that different men need different needs, and some are better with freedom than others.

    And besides... do you really think many of the people that do the same things in Dark Souls would go with commitment much?
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Azran on Fri May 11, 2012 4:37 pm

    In a certain sense, they are expressing their freedom by choosing whatever weapons and armor they want, right? silly

    If they remade covenants, there should be three things I think would be neat.
    First of all, shackles. You joined a Covenant? You better stay with it, SRS BSNS lorewise. HEAVY penalties for treason; there should be a way to get out of a Covenant peacefully though (kinda like Oswald of Carim).
    Second, benefits. There should be more stuff to be unlocked so people feel inclined to actually think of what Covenant they want to join.
    Third, a reason to stay OUT of covenants. Kind of like the Loner "faction" of STALKER, but lorewise it would be a conglomerate of undead that do not bow to anyone.


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by SlakeMoth on Fri May 11, 2012 6:01 pm

    I've decided to 'Carry on Swapping' and thanks all. I'm kind of relieved there are no real penalties though.

    And a +1 for you Acidic Cook for explaining things so well but mainly for calling me 'sweetheart'. That's nice.
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri May 11, 2012 8:27 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:Well serious, I use my freedom differently than others. It shows that different men need different needs, and some are better with freedom than others.

    And besides... do you really think many of the people that do the same things in Dark Souls would go with commitment much?

    Well obviously one of the covenants would entail some easy to use equipment, they wouldn't put simpletons out in the cold but they'd make it so if you wanted an ambitious build beyond stunlock and high poise, you needed to be in a different covenant.

    I just want a way to stop people from all looking the same to be fair, is that too much to ask really?


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Sebastrd on Fri May 11, 2012 11:05 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:I just want a way to stop people from all looking the same to be fair, is that too much to ask really?

    Yes, it is. Play the way you want, and let others play the way they want. Don't ask for rules to make everyone play the way you want. If folks are comfortable with looking like everyone else, why is that wrong?
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri May 11, 2012 11:13 pm

    Sebastrd wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:I just want a way to stop people from all looking the same to be fair, is that too much to ask really?

    Yes, it is. Play the way you want, and let others play the way they want. Don't ask for rules to make everyone play the way you want. If folks are comfortable with looking like everyone else, why is that wrong?

    To be perfectly honest, I didn't say anything to do with people playing how I wanted. Just for them to vary equipment and tactics a bit.

    Though I think I put that quote there badly, I meant that I would like a system that encourages people more to use things other than the same stuff over and over, that gives good reason to do things other than poise tank etc.

    It's just a shame that there's so many weapons in the game but most PvP encounters used the same 5 or so weapons and almost same armour set.


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by User on Fri May 11, 2012 11:22 pm

    You prefer diversity, no?

    Just to remind you that the same works here in reality. There are a lot of diverse people, however there are many more who prefer the ideals of 'fitting in', for different reasons of course. With this, by them using the same forms of armour and weapons, they are just fitting in with the more popular crowd. Sadly it is true, but it true nonetheless. There are still many who go their own path of building their characters... but there are also many who do not.
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Azran on Fri May 11, 2012 11:31 pm

    The lack of diversity in DkS does not originate from the player, but from the game's lack of balance. Nowadays there's a lot of equipment that is just too good to pass up, or good equipment that simply can't compete against the top tier.

    Plus, there is always a munchkin.


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Sebastrd on Sat May 12, 2012 12:15 am

    Serious_Much wrote:To be perfectly honest, I didn't say anything to do with people playing how I wanted. Just for them to vary equipment and tactics a bit.

    Though I think I put that quote there badly, I meant that I would like a system that encourages people more to use things other than the same stuff over and over, that gives good reason to do things other than poise tank etc.

    It's just a shame that there's so many weapons in the game but most PvP encounters used the same 5 or so weapons and almost same armour set.

    When you put it that way, I agree.

    You see the same phenomenon in TTRPG's like D&D. Either options, such as equipment, are mechanically balanced and basically equal, so choices are meaningless and simply aesthetic; or they are mechanically diverse and unbalanced, so players gravitate to the mechanically superior options and everyone plays the same thing. It's a catch-22 the incredibly difficult to solve.
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat May 12, 2012 3:33 am

    Azran wrote:The lack of diversity in DkS does not originate from the player, but from the game's lack of balance. Nowadays there's a lot of equipment that is just too good to pass up, or good equipment that simply can't compete against the top tier.

    That's why I think a more defined covenant system could be used so that it's impossible to wear all of the good stuff and instead choose what you want, the equipment wouldn't need to be properly balanced as long as the good equipment/abilities were shared out well.


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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by SlakeMoth on Sat May 12, 2012 5:10 am

    Reading between the lines this has become a discussion about freedom of choice which is something I'm much in favour of (no pun intended) because in the real world our personal freedoms are being eroded by stealth and legislation.

    I agree with Serious to some extent, variety is the spice of life but being 'different' is a hard road to travel on. I've always been 'different' without trying. A little apart from the main herd. The proverbial 'square peg', never quite fitting in. I mean, how many women of my age do you know who play games, never mind games like Dark Souls? Not that I've made a conscious effort to be different, it's just my mindset. My eldest daughter confided in me that when she was a kid at primary school, she longed for me to be just like all her friend's mothers and wear a skirt and sensible shoes instead of jeans and sneakers when I went to PTA meetings and stuff like that, but she's so glad now that I didn't because my take on life made her question the norm.

    On the other hand, shouldn't people have the right to choose conformity? To be the same as everyone else? Of course they should and most people do this because it's the safe and easiest path through life. The danger here of course is that they are doing exactly what governments want them to do. To be clones & drones because if the herd all run in the same direction, they are easier to manage, to control.

    Phew, I got a bit carried away there sorry but as far as I'm concerned it's a case of vive la difference.
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    Re: This has been bothering me for some time

    Post by Azran on Sat May 12, 2012 5:48 am

    I was about to post something. Then I read what SlakeMoth posted.

    +1.


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