Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

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    Darkwolf

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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Darkwolf on Thu May 10, 2012 2:37 pm

    That is an interesting subject: Just what is "normal" height in Lordran? Why specifically call the owner of the fourth Lord soul a Pygmy, meaning unusually short. Short compared to who? There are a wide range of heights of people you encounter, such as tower knights, barbarians, sentinels, black/silver knights, npcs, Gwyn, Andre, etc. If you the player character is a descendant of the Pygmy, then you must be around the same height as your ancestor.

    Unless From was instead using Pygmy's other definition to mean unimportant, well, the height thing is less clear.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by WyrmHero on Thu May 10, 2012 2:49 pm

    I'm thinking that the gods were a different race from humans, much like the gods from the greeks. So they would change their shape at will but they are taller than humans. Also I think the 4 Knights and the Silver/Black knights are demigods, tall humans with godly powers (I need to see if Artorias is taller than you, if he is then this theory is almost valid).


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu May 10, 2012 2:55 pm

    I can easily see the links you're mentioning between all those things. I always get hung up on the darn painting and feel that's really the key. That could be why the director said most people wouldn't get it until after their first playthrough. I know I wasn't looking at paintings my first time there. I used power within, red tearstone, lemon buffing and two handing my great scythe and that dang crow gets away every time. Don't tell the forest hunters this but I tried offing Alvina once too and got her bar to what should have been zero. Nothing special happened......she called me names and left.

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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Thu May 10, 2012 3:05 pm

    I haven't tried any of this stuff. I always leave my NPC's alive. I'm going on a killing spree when this character is done.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu May 10, 2012 3:11 pm

    I've yet to find a way to kill Anastacia myself but apart from her the hardest NPC in the game to kill is friggin' Rickert. I hate that guy with a passion now. And since I don't use magic or enchanted weapons he's literally worthless to me. I might kill him tonight just for spite and I'm the type of guy who won't tell Laurentius where I got Chaos pyro so he doesn't go exploring and hollow on me.

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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Kenko on Thu May 10, 2012 3:14 pm

    guyyys i think the velka people was in painted world to get the blacksmith with the dark ember.
    maybe he used to make weapons for sinners? or it was viewed as a sin to make occult weapons
    or maybe thats why velkas weapons have occult in them! Sleep
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Thu May 10, 2012 3:20 pm

    Yeah I'm same way. I tend to be nice to my NPCs. My current builds been using toxic mist. Maybe I'll tonxin rickert's behind.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu May 10, 2012 3:28 pm

    It didn't work when I tried it. I ran back and forth to Firelink trying to find a way to kill him. I was hoping for a fourth blacksmith hammer. The only AoE spell I didn't try was WoG so maybe I'll try that. None of my usual weapons worked either as well as any pyromancy. I figured the chaos ones would leave some nice lava for him to roast on. I don't wanna spoil it unless you want so I'll tell you what finally worked but hide it in case you wanna wreck him without help.

    Spoiler:
    I had to poke him with a standard spear

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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Thu May 10, 2012 3:46 pm

    I was about to suggest that. Force spells must work right? I'll play around with it and post my results.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Quarik on Thu May 10, 2012 5:58 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:Don't tell the forest hunters this but I tried offing Alvina once too and got her bar to what should have been zero. Nothing special happened......she called me names and left.

    Traitorous swine!

    DoughGuy wrote:In the intro Gwyn looks just taller than his knights, thw witch looks as tall as her daughters and you see Nito's ful height. I'd say the gods (lord soul gods and their immediate family that is) were normal height which makes sense since they were basically humans that found super souls.

    If I remember correctly, in the opening the Witch is about twice the height of the Daughters of Chaos. So about the same height as Nito. Gwyn being taller than his knights still makes him pretty huge, because SK/BK's are like seven and a half feet tall.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Thu May 10, 2012 6:39 pm

    PlasticandRage wrote:So I'm hunting for possible pendant nonsense in game, which really marks the first time I've looked anywhere other than the internet, and I'm noticing some stuff that I haven't heard discussed before and I thought I'd post some of my ideas and see if anyone has anything to add/reject.

    I'm pretty sure the room at the end of Gwyndolin's hallway is Gwynevere's tomb. Has this been brought up before? The large stone thing at the end could easily be a coffin. It's the correct shape, has a bouquet of flowers resting on its lid, and a single chair is sitting in front, as if Gwyndolin were mourning at her grave. It would also go without saying that it's the appropriate size for her body.

    I may be late to the party, but I believe the Gods to be normal sized, and to have altered their own appearance with magic/illusions. So, when Gwyn wanted to look like a big god, he'd look like a big god, you know?

    When Gwyn went to link the fire, he sacrificed himself and became hollow. No one really knows this - they know he left, but not that he is simply a hollow chilling in the kiln as of now - they think him a hero, whose body rests in the tomb of the great lord gwyn, which shall not be tarnished by men.

    But, just in case somebody DID tarnish the tomb, they would surely find a huge coffin - too large to be tampered with, which not only prevents the revealing of the truth of Gwyn NOT being there, but reinforces the sheer size/power of the Great Lord/the Gods in general.

    EDIT: And by 'normal sized' I do generally mean 'larger than a person but not giant', a-la Ornstein and Smough and the like.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Thu May 10, 2012 6:45 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:It didn't work when I tried it. I ran back and forth to Firelink trying to find a way to kill him. I was hoping for a fourth blacksmith hammer. The only AoE spell I didn't try was WoG so maybe I'll try that.

    I'll tell you whether or not WoTG works.
    Spoiler:
    Yup.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu May 10, 2012 8:15 pm

    Quarik wrote:
    skarekrow13 wrote:Don't tell the forest hunters this but I tried offing Alvina once too and got her bar to what should have been zero. Nothing special happened......she called me names and left.

    Traitorous swine!

    DoughGuy wrote:In the intro Gwyn looks just taller than his knights, thw witch looks as tall as her daughters and you see Nito's ful height. I'd say the gods (lord soul gods and their immediate family that is) were normal height which makes sense since they were basically humans that found super souls.

    If I remember correctly, in the opening the Witch is about twice the height of the Daughters of Chaos. So about the same height as Nito. Gwyn being taller than his knights still makes him pretty huge, because SK/BK's are like seven and a half feet tall.

    her daughters are actually on their knees which makes them appear shorter.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu May 10, 2012 8:18 pm

    You're going down Rickert!

    Johnny, fashionably late perhaps.

    Quarik, we talked it over. Alvina and I are cool

    I think this is the thread where plastic brought up Gwyndolin being jacked up. The painting makes his face look normal but who knows there. His tentacles are weird though

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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Quarik on Thu May 10, 2012 8:27 pm

    DoughGuy- I see, thanks for the clarification. Still, if Gwyn is taller than the Four Knights and/or the regular BKs, he's a giant. Nito is certainly large, and Seath and T4K are very large.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu May 10, 2012 8:51 pm

    The 4 kings have been changed by the power of the dark though. They have all swelled with its power. Gwyn is probably the equivalent of the worlds tallest man.
    Spoiler:
    Remember we are the pygmy's descendant and are thus shorter than most people.

    @Skare if you look at the pic Wyrm has as his avatar the dress is quite wide. its possible he already has tentacles in it.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu May 10, 2012 9:09 pm

    Yeah, I've done a lot of work with that painting and the other one they could be Gwyndolin and surmised before that he might have been raised as a girl partly because of the moon thing but also because dresses hide his third leg better. And fourth......fifth leg....tenth.....you get the idea. I was only wondering if the mask was due too a later issue, vanity (like an Elton John thing), or insecurity. My money is on insecurity

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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Thu May 10, 2012 11:24 pm

    I guess I always assumed those appendages were part of his garment. Never really looked when i got right up on him.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Fri May 11, 2012 2:34 am

    Gods and demi-gods in this game are all different sizes. I think it's like genes for humans, but instead of the minimal for a normal full sized person being 5 foot and the max bing 7 foot, it's like a minimum of 8 feet (Ornstien looks to be the shortest), and the tallest being Gwynovere. Though, we have no idea if that's the real size, which I doubt. So, the minimum and max probably is 8 feet to 13 feet, which would be Smough, a demi-god.
    I honestly thought Nito was as big as the bridge wyvern until recently (I faced him...)
    I didn't say that Gwyndolyn is the shortest normal god because he ISN'T normal. He's extremely abnormal. Thus, his size is probably part of his abnormality. PLUS! The moon is smaller than the sun. Jus' sayin'.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri May 11, 2012 3:30 am

    JoeBroski09 wrote:PLUS! The moon is smaller than the sun. Jus' sayin'.

    I like that comparison. So far the explanation I like the best is that Gwyn was huge also but when he became hollow the part of him that was divine was lost, and he shrank down to human form, and that part of Gwyndolin's abnormality is his size. Just the large scale of seemingly everything but man makes me think it's not just an illusion.

    Credit where credits due, that was Quarik that said most of that. Just IMO what makes the most sense
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Fri May 11, 2012 8:21 am

    I dont think Smough is as tall as his armour. If I remember rightly there are eye holes around the neck for him to see out of. I think Gwyn is about as big as the gods get. he did have the largest lord soul so it makes sense. I think Gwyndolins size is due to being experimented on by Seath. It stunted his growth and changed his body.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Shkar on Fri May 11, 2012 9:22 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:
    JoeBroski09 wrote:PLUS! The moon is smaller than the sun. Jus' sayin'.

    So far the explanation I like the best is that Gwyn was huge also but when he became hollow the part of him that was divine was lost, and he shrank down to human form

    I'm sure others will disagree, but I don't think that's accurate. Gwyn fights way too well for him to have been shrunk like that. If he had been a giant and shrunk when he became hollow, I would think he would still try to fight as if he was a giant.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Fri May 11, 2012 9:27 am

    On one hand he would have shrunk a few undred years ago. On the other hand theres very little to do let alone to fight in the Kiln. I think the biggest piece of evidence is his height in th eprologue.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri May 11, 2012 10:08 am

    Gwyndolin also isn't as short as he looks. Most of the time he's not really standing at his full height. He's slimmer than the rest of the Gods but he can be a good deal taller than us still when he's angry enough to not care that his tentacles are showing. I've always thought that most of the humanoids in the game represented two groups. Our size or bigger. Smough's girth makes him look way bigger but really he's on par with the rest of the gods and demi-gods. I'll point out the statues again since we're discussing the heights in depth. The statues of Ornstein and Smough are to scale. The invisible Gwyndolin statue looks right. Gwynevere we can't be sure since there's the crazy sized illusion and a bigger statue elsewhere but that's 3 out of 5 statues that are to scale. The Gywn statue appears to be to scale to how we fight him and I think that represents his height for a few reasons. First, no one else who goes hollows loses height. It doesn't seem that skeletal structure (which would need to change to lose height) is affected, just soft tissue. Second, unless the sculptor followed Gwyn into the Kiln, waited for him to go hollow and then found a way to escape back to Anor Londo: the statue was built before he left meaning it was made to represent him in all his glory. Lastly, if Gwyn was the undisputed ruler/supreme being; if any exaggeration or false representation of him were to be made it would be made bigger than he actually was and not smaller.

    Now, in true St. Thomas Aquinas fashion I shall argue against my own points. I theorized elsewhere that Gwyndolin tries to rule from the shadows but the new order of the City is actually Ornstein and Smough. I believe this since there's statues of them but none of the knights beside Ornstein. Smough was not one of the Four Knights (but the descriptions suggest he was a peer both in power and renown). He was also an executioner and a kinda monstrous one at that, so unlikely to be glorified with a statue of equal status to Ornstein, the Dragonslayer. Ornstein's name basically states "look who's bad*** and a top tier hero." So my guess is that there were some renovations after the departure/murder of the other knights and Gods. So it's possible that the statues of the three Gods in their room were made afterwards and the scale is whatever they felt was appropriate.

    Gonna argue with myself again. However, the statues appear to be Gwyndolin's domain despite their location as his statue is invisible. There's also no inherent reason to think they would need to destroy or remodel the whole city. Instead, placing their statues as welcome signs might be enough. Their location and fight, trying to stop you from reaching Gwynevere, also seems to imply they still have some loyalty to the Gods.

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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri May 11, 2012 10:35 am

    So you're referring, with all that, to the God statues in the O&S arena, and the O&S statues in the hall that you can take the side exit out of up into the archives? If that's the case the Gwyn statue we see is enormous. Much larger than the one we fight I think.

    I would also argue that Gwyn is the only deity we see/fight that goes hollow. I would argue that Nito isn't hollow, citing both his actions in still running his covenant, and Frampt's explanation that not all of the lords have gone hollow, but that they've just outlived their usefulness, Seath I'd argue was never a deity, just a dragon, and the 4 kings, who I'd argue have actually gained some kind of demi-god status, like the SK and BKs, have gained some size. Gywn is the only one we fight who definitely was a God who definitely went hollow. I'd also cite something that, while isn't entirely accepted, general consensus at least seems to favor it, being the possibility of Solaire being Gwyn's lost child. The war God. Who would represent another deity who became a normal man, possibly in scale as well, when losing his divine power.


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