Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Shkar on Sat May 12, 2012 4:09 am

    DoughGuy wrote:They do live in the featureless abyss.
    Also my post wasnt directed at you. Three other people posted while I was so it got a little pushed back.

    Acknowledged happy

    That's just it though. Is the abyss bottomless? Do they literally just fade into blackness, are they infinitely long, or what? This game is horrible for my obsession with knowing details like that...

    As a side note, when my friend first told me there was a second serpent, I immediately wondered if it was a catdog-esque scenario and what you fed Fraampt was thrown up by Kaathe.Then I saw the dark lord ending, and my curiosity has been tortured ever since.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 12, 2012 4:11 am

    Server + rite of kindling + large flame ember + humanity drawn from the dark soul = Primordial serpent?


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:13 am

    I'm not saying that I think the CW is going to Kaathe in order for Kaathe to attempt some kind of physical harm upon Frampt. What I'm saying is: it's been postulated that, like the CW in DeS, the CW in DkS is a warrior who was at one time on the same mission that the chosen undead is on, but presumably became to afraid to continue, so, completely dejected, he just hangs out in the central hub and spouts asinine depressed ramblings at the CU. But because Frampt was irritating him so much, he decided to take back up the mantle of his adventure and go on to side with Kaathe as opposed to Frampt, in order to 'do something about it.' But it's fitting for the CW's character, because it's also been postulated that part of what he fears so much is becoming hollow, and the second he leaves that exactly what happens.

    You can't really argue that Kaathe and Frampt aren't two opposing forces, even if those forces were to be the two sides of the same coin. Each one's goal undermines the other.

    Man this is how you can tell I'm tired. I'm misspelling everything.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Shkar on Sat May 12, 2012 4:16 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Server + rite of kindling + large flame ember + humanity drawn from the dark soul = Primordial serpent?

    Personally, I think the Server (at least) is more likely part of the rites of the Dragon covenant. The torso/head stones are refereed to as rites in the item descriptions, and the serpents on the server are related to the dragons.


    PlasticandRage wrote:I'm not saying that I think the CW is going to
    Kaathe in order for Kaathe to attempt some kind of physical hard upon
    Frampt. What I'm saying is: it's been postulated that, like the CW in
    DeS, the CW in DkS is a warrior who was at one time on the same mission
    that the chosen undead is on, but presumably became to afraid to
    continue, so, completely dejecting, he just hangs out in the central hub
    and spouts asinine depressed ramblings at the CU. But because Frampt
    was irritating him so much, he decided to take back up the mantle of his
    adventure and go on to side with Kaathe as opposed to Frampt, in order
    to 'do something about it.' But it's fitting for the CW's character,
    because it's also been postulated that part of what he fears so much is
    becoming hollow, and the second he leaves that exactly what
    happens.

    That's not the part we're saying lacks evidence. We're saying we don't
    see how the CW could even know about Kaathe in the first place to go
    looking for him.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:17 am

    Where's evidence that he wouldn't know about Kaathe? Where's evidence that the knowledge of Kaathe isn't common knowledge to begin with? Just because he's hard to find in-game doesn't mean he isn't known around Lordran. What's his name, the remaining Sealer?, seems to know all about him.

    Wow. Before I just did the like 12 edits that I did. My last post was probably the most typo/misspelling riddled post I have ever made on this forum.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:19 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 12, 2012 4:18 am

    But he wants to go hollow. Im pretty sure he says at one point hes waiting for it to hapen (ill try to find it on youtube). Plus even if he was on your quest he couldt have succeeded in ringing both bells or he would have encountered frampt earlier. Plus he is part of your qorld and Quelaag is alive so it would be hard for him to have done it.
    He isnt well known because vrey little is known about Lordran. very few people come here. Plus he live in the abyss, the place you need a one of a kind ring guarded by a one of a kind wolf to go in safely.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:22 am

    I remember the DeS CW saying he's waiting to die, but I don't know that I remember this one saying it. Though that doesn't mean he didn't. It still doesn't change that he motivates in the end, regardless of what it is he's motivating to do. I'd also argue that part of his inherent character is an inability to do things properly.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:23 am

    DoughGuy wrote:But he wants to go hollow. Im pretty sure he says at one point hes waiting for it to hapen (ill try to find it on youtube). Plus even if he was on your quest he couldt have succeeded in ringing both bells or he would have encountered frampt earlier. Plus he is part of your qorld and Quelaag is alive so it would be hard for him to have done it.
    He isnt well known because vrey little is known about Lordran. very few people come here. Plus he live in the abyss, the place you need a one of a kind ring guarded by a one of a kind wolf to go in safely.

    Yet the Sealer didn't have some of those things and was still aware of his existence. I could also argue that even without direct knowledge of Kaathe himself, that the knowledge of the DarkWraiths, who share the same goal, would be enough. Clearly their existence is well known around Lordran.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 12, 2012 4:26 am

    The sealer was around hundreds of years ago when new londo was flooded after Kaathe corrupted them and Artorias. Its part of his job to know about the abys and its dangers and ward people who are unworthy away from it.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Shkar on Sat May 12, 2012 4:29 am

    DoughGuy wrote:The sealer was around hundreds of years ago when new londo was flooded after Kaathe corrupted them and Artorias. Its part of his job to know about the abys and its dangers and ward people who are unworthy away from it.

    I'm going to have to go with this sadly. In every fantasy world there is always some great wizard/being who knows of the great danger, and yet it typically is unknown to everyone else. My perspective is that if it was well known, it would have been mentioned in the legends (the intro cutscene).

    As I said earlier, it's not as if your idea doesn't have merit, it just isn't very supported. For all I know, it could in theory be true.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 12, 2012 4:32 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1Tvabrqegc
    8:30-8:50. he doesnt say it specifically but I dont know what else you could infer from those statements.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:33 am

    I feel like that someone whose currently alive, with that knowledge, existing for hundreds of years with that knowledge, does nothing but reinforce my argument that people around Lordran could know about Kaathe. Also if Frampt was Gywn's best friend, as well as Seath, and he was as closely tied to his children as has been postulated. Then you could also assume that Gwyn knew about Kaathe, in which case you could assume that Seath did, and Gwyndolin did, and Gwynevere did, etc. etc. Whose to say that there aren't Lordran legends about Kaathe's existence and where he'd be? Or, if the previously stated theories are assumed correct, and Kaathe and Frampt are parts of the same creature, then it'd be impossible to dispute that all those people didn't know about him.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:34 am

    Shkar wrote:
    DoughGuy wrote:The sealer was around hundreds of years ago when new londo was flooded after Kaathe corrupted them and Artorias. Its part of his job to know about the abys and its dangers and ward people who are unworthy away from it.

    I'm going to have to go with this sadly. In every fantasy world there is always some great wizard/being who knows of the great danger, and yet it typically is unknown to everyone else. My perspective is that if it was well known, it would have been mentioned in the legends (the intro cutscene).

    As I said earlier, it's not as if your idea doesn't have merit, it just isn't very supported. For all I know, it could in theory be true.

    Frampt isn't mentioned in those scenes either. I'm not getting upset about this. Please don't think I am. Quite the contrary, I'm really enjoying the debate.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Shkar on Sat May 12, 2012 4:40 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:
    Shkar wrote:
    DoughGuy wrote:The sealer was
    around hundreds of years ago when new londo was flooded after Kaathe
    corrupted them and Artorias. Its part of his job to know about the abys
    and its dangers and ward people who are unworthy away from it.

    I'm
    going to have to go with this sadly. In every fantasy world there is
    always some great wizard/being who knows of the great danger, and yet it
    typically is unknown to everyone else. My perspective is that if it was
    well known, it would have been mentioned in the legends (the intro
    cutscene).

    As I said earlier, it's not as if your idea doesn't
    have merit, it just isn't very supported. For all I know, it could in
    theory be true.

    Frampt isn't mentioned in those scenes
    either. I'm not getting upset about this. Please don't think I am. Quite
    the contrary, I'm really enjoying the debate.

    Neither one played a very large part in the overall history of Lrdran
    (so far as we know). Quite frankly, we have next to no evidence on what
    society is like in the world. While it is understandable that people
    would know something was amiss by the flooding of New Londo, it's
    equally possible that nobody knew (travel could have been difficult) or
    the reason was held as a state secret (USSR, anyone?).

    The problem of saying "It doesn't say they don't know about him" is that it literally works for anything:

    "They never said you HAD to get the lord souls to open the Kiln!"
    "They never said the Everlasting Dragon WASN'T Quelaag in a mask!"
    "They never said Smough WASN'T two kids in a suit of armor trying to get into PG-13 movies!"
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 12, 2012 4:41 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:I feel like that someone whose currently alive, with that knowledge, existing for hundreds of years with that knowledge, does nothing but reinforce my argument that people around Lordran could know about Kaathe. Also if Frampt was Gywn's best friend, as well as Seath, and he was as closely tied to his children as has been postulated. Then you could also assume that Gwyn knew about Kaathe, in which case you could assume that Seath did, and Gwyndolin did, and Gwynevere did, etc. etc. Whose to say that there aren't Lordran legends about Kaathe's existence and where he'd be? Or, if the previously stated theories are assumed correct, and Kaathe and Frampt are parts of the same creature, then it'd be impossible to dispute that all those people didn't know about him.

    My point about the one of a kind ring guarded by a one of a kind dog still stands. Why wasnt he in the forest? If Kaathe is common knowledge the inability to survive in the abyss would be too. (DONT bring up beatrice. There too much speculation there about her heritage being involved)


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:48 am

    I don't think he set out with the intention of finding Kaathe originally. I think once Frampt started irritating him he became motivated, as lazy people do, only to do the most direct thing that put a stop to what was irritating him. I'd say if legends existed about Kaathe's existence, it'd be more likely that some rando would have the vague knowledge of his existence, and general region, as opposed to have every scrap of knowledge on how to find him. The CW trying to find him, based on limited knowledge and failing, isn't the same as the CW knowing exactly how to find him and going for it, then failing.

    Also, isn't it said somewhere, I can't remember where, that New Londo was the most contemporary city in Lordran before it flooded? I could be wrong there, but I feel like I remember reading/hearing that.

    I actually have to crash. 4:00 am here. To be continued. Definitely interested in hearing some Beatrice lore. These last few days represent my first real forays into Lordran lore. Really enjoying it.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Shkar on Sat May 12, 2012 4:53 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:I don't think he set out with the intention of finding Kaathe originally. I think once Frampt started irritating him he became motivated, as lazy people do, only to do the most direct thing that put a stop to what was irritating him. I'd say if legends existed about Kaathe's existence, it'd be more likely that some rando would have the vague knowledge of his existence, and general region, as opposed to have every scrap of knowledge on how to find him. The CW trying to find him, based on limited knowledge and failing, isn't the same as the CW knowing exactly how to find him and going for it, then failing.

    I won't argue that part, as that is very reasonable. However, it does not seem likely that the Gods would actually just up and tell the normal civilians "Guess what! There's a giant snake in the darkness with an army of murderers who want to suck out your soul!"
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat May 12, 2012 4:56 am

    Shkar wrote:
    PlasticandRage wrote:I don't think he set out with the intention of finding Kaathe originally. I think once Frampt started irritating him he became motivated, as lazy people do, only to do the most direct thing that put a stop to what was irritating him. I'd say if legends existed about Kaathe's existence, it'd be more likely that some rando would have the vague knowledge of his existence, and general region, as opposed to have every scrap of knowledge on how to find him. The CW trying to find him, based on limited knowledge and failing, isn't the same as the CW knowing exactly how to find him and going for it, then failing.

    I won't argue that part, as that is very reasonable. However, it does not seem likely that the Gods would actually just up and tell the normal civilians "Guess what! There's a giant snake in the darkness with an army of murderers who want to suck out your soul!"

    I wouldn't argue against that either, however I would argue that it's likely that if the God's children knew then so did their covenants. That'd make the DM Blades, the Princess Guard, and arguably the Gravelords, depending on how you interpret Gwyn's relationship with Nito. That's a pretty big mass of people for word to not get around eventually. Even if it's vague.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Shkar on Sat May 12, 2012 5:02 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:
    Shkar wrote:
    PlasticandRage wrote:I don't think he set out with the intention of finding Kaathe originally. I think once Frampt started irritating him he became motivated, as lazy people do, only to do the most direct thing that put a stop to what was irritating him. I'd say if legends existed about Kaathe's existence, it'd be more likely that some rando would have the vague knowledge of his existence, and general region, as opposed to have every scrap of knowledge on how to find him. The CW trying to find him, based on limited knowledge and failing, isn't the same as the CW knowing exactly how to find him and going for it, then failing.

    I won't argue that part, as that is very reasonable. However, it does not seem likely that the Gods would actually just up and tell the normal civilians "Guess what! There's a giant snake in the darkness with an army of murderers who want to suck out your soul!"

    I wouldn't argue against that either, however I would argue that it's likely that if the God's children knew then so did their covenants. That'd make the DM Blades, the Princess Guard, and arguably the Gravelords, depending on how you interpret Gwyn's relationship with Nito. That's a pretty big mass of people for word to not get around eventually. Even if it's vague.

    I think this response would be better off in list form, so here we go!

    1. The Darkmoon Blades are only referred to as assassins, making them unlikely to engage in ordinary gossip.

    2. Princess Guard appears to be more of Gwynevere aiding the chosen undead as opposed to an actual covenant.

    3. There is a separate race from humans, and it is possible that they were the main troops of the gods (seen as a "holier race", perhaps?). This is confirmed in an interview where Miyamoto said Quelana wasn't human. If they were seen as "upper class", they wouldn't have talked much with the common rabble.


    Number two is because a covenant would basically be a personal connection with a god (except WoW?). Number three is easily seen by looking at interactions in caste systems throughout history.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 12, 2012 5:06 am

    The non human thing is odd. The silver knights dont seem human since they live so long. Quelana was the daughter of the witch yet shes not human. Maybe th e witch of Izalith is a chaos being made flesh?
    @Plastic You can find the discussion on Beatrice somewhere in the second half of the darkroot thread.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Shkar on Sat May 12, 2012 5:12 am

    DoughGuy wrote:The non human thing is odd. The silver knights dont seem human since they live so long. Quelana was the daughter of the witch yet shes not human. Maybe th e witch of Izalith is a chaos being made flesh?
    @Plastic You can find the discussion on Beatrice somewhere in the second half of the darkroot thread.

    It's possible. I think it's more likely that humans are just an "evolutionary" branch way of the initial humanoid race (That being the Izalith family, the Knights (possibly), etc.)

    In addition, when Nito rises from his coffin for the fight, if you look carefully you can see a black "body mass" inside the groups of sleketons. Almost like the giants in Sen's/Anor Londo, bringing new meaning to "Tomb of the Giants" (and maybe the giants being another branch race?)
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 12, 2012 5:16 am

    If you have the artbook thers strong evidence that Nito is actually a single skeleton within his mass animating all the other ones.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Sat May 12, 2012 5:17 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:I feel like enough vague statements are made by the Crestfallen Warrior that it's silly to call one argument without basis any more than another. Aside for a distaste for Frampt and a desire for te bells to ring

    True, but I don't think he knows about another Primordial Serpent, nor would he seek the help of another if he doesn't like the first one. 'Ring the bell and...something happens!' Seems as if he doubts that anything will happen, or at least has given up risking his neck for an unknown, and quite possibly non-existent, reward. I don't think he knows about either Serpent, and just took the elevator down and got yilled by ghosts.


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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by Shkar on Sat May 12, 2012 5:18 am

    DoughGuy wrote:If you have the artbook thers strong evidence that Nito is actually a single skeleton within his mass animating all the other ones.

    I would actually be very interested in that part ( I don't have one sad). The whole "ZOMG, SKIN!" part was just one thing I accidentally picked up on while helping someone out with him.
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    Re: Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Sat May 12, 2012 5:20 am

    Nito is definitely a single skeleton at his core. Just look at him in the opening.


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