The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

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    The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by Buggy Virus on Wed May 09, 2012 4:52 pm

    Taking another look at the opening cinematic there is something sitting right in the open that has always bugged me. The line: "And Found The Souls Of Lords Within." This implies that the Four Lords we know today didn't get their power directly from the flame, but rather found these "Souls of Lords" which lent them their power.

    This may seem just like a syntax clarification, but the implication of them finding the lords of souls is that there much have been a reason for the souls being those of lords even before the age of fire and before the four lords.

    To me this means that even before the age of the ancients there was some force that created or used these souls of lords. In other words, there would have been lords before the Age of Ancients as to designate these souls as "Lord" souls.


    So how does the possibility of a past age before the ancients play into this?

    Well we know of the dragon covenant with the description they have on all their items.

    "The dragon apostles seek transcendence of
    life itself, attainable by transformation
    into an ancient dragon. This rite is only one
    step, but it cannot be reversed until death."

    The everlasting dragon provides those who seek him out with the ability to become an immortal dragon.

    Then there is also the description of dragon scales:

    "Dragon scale for reinforcing dragon weapons.
    Peeled from an ancient dragon.

    A dragon is inseparable from its scales,
    and the transcendent apostles, who seek
    the perpetuity of the ancient dragons,
    have crossed the very end of the earth
    to seek this invaluable treasure."

    So we see that dragon scales are rare. And in the description it is stated that they must be peeled from the corpses of ancient dragons. Then when you have a dragon scale you can use it at the dragon covenant by offering it to the everlasting dragon and increasing your ascendance into an everlasting dragon yourself.

    So what is the significance of this? The significance is there is a finite number of dragon scales. Made of stone, they are not biological, but more like a finite mineral, or a force of nature. This is why the way one must gain dragon scales other than killing dragons or their twisted descendants, or finding them, is by duels in which you must take another's dragon scales.

    So in effect, there is always a constant amount of dragon scales, or life force of dragons, what I am going to call, "dragon energy" (clever, I know).

    And from the fact that you can become a dragon, I suspect if the game was capable (and wasn't constrained to what it was) offering enough scales would eventually make you into a full sized dragon.



    So how does this play in with the souls of lords part? I believe that dragons are something created as individuals consciously decide to give up their humanity (the concept, not the black sprite) and bodies for immortality, and tranquility.

    This means that the age before the Age of The Ancients had some catastrophic event happen. Only those who had become dragons survived. And the souls of those who died, or maybe only the souls of those who decided to become dragons and discarded their human form and souls in order to do this make up the lords souls that the four lords would later find within the fire.

    In essence, whenever an age of dragons comes about, it is like a hard reset for the entire world. The normal beings die out and only the dragons remain, making the world unformed and ready for the next rise of civilization.

    Further, in the opening we have another strange line.

    "Then, from the dark, they came,"

    These are the undead that will become the first undead, and will collect the lords souls. From the video it seems they rose as the flames were lit. This makes me suspect that these lords are actually the dead from the age before the Age of The Ancients being brought back to life (well to undeadness) by the first flame. This is why Nito is the "first of the dead" because obviously the undead that rose from the flame didn't then die and then get immediately rise again to create Nito. No, the dead bodies he is formed from existed as the first flame was originally kindled.

    So Nito is actually the first of the dead from the previous age, perhaps even not the very first of the dead, but rather the first of the dead in whatever apocalyptic devastation that altered the world into the Age of The Ancients.

    This also means that there could have been any number of hard resets caused by dragons, such as the age of the ancients. Where populaces decide to give up their humanity for immortality, but become the apathetic dragons.

    And yeah, that's about it.


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed May 09, 2012 6:49 pm

    Those that came from the dark may have been humans. There's no proof they were dead. It doesn't even make sense for them to be undead. If they were undead then where did the humans come from?


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by Buggy Virus on Wed May 09, 2012 8:08 pm

    Then that would imply that there was more during the age of the ancients than just the dragons. I suppose they could have been alive just living underground. But the main point of my theory is the hard reset caused by dragons.


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed May 09, 2012 8:16 pm

    I dont know, I find it entirely possible the age of fog was simply how the world started. I mean even after the flame of disparity goes out there is still disparity. Its not something that is easily removed from the world.


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by Buggy Virus on Wed May 09, 2012 8:21 pm

    It isn't easily removed. But if the most powerful caste of the population elected to become dragons and then horded their souls someplace then as dragons relegated the populace underground it would be entirely possible.

    Then from that the flame of disparity may have been sort of a big bang moment, when the souls the lords has stored away eventually couldn't be kept hidden any longer.


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed May 09, 2012 9:58 pm

    Clever what you say about human rising from the dead. I like it. In the intro when they rise they seem weak and disoriented, like they were dead but were being bought back to life by the Flame. I like your theory. It may be a connection as to why the curse of the undead began, because when the Flame started to fade away and Gwyn went to relit it, he wasnt supposed to, as it was time for humans to die and rest. This doesn't make sense because we have the Age of Dark but I think we have something solid here


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Thu May 10, 2012 1:25 am

    What about what Quelaag on youtube said? That serpents are unfinished or incomplete dragons? The primordial serpent could either mean that Frampt and or Kaathe either were there when everything began, or was the first serpent. I believe they were the first serpent, and they are of one body. Because they can't be dragons, I believe, according to your theory, they finally have a chance to keep the dragons from resetting again. By either continuing the age of fire, or by having a dark lord reign over everything, thus creating a new age. The Age of Dark. Another theory could be that they are different, and Frampt wants you to continue the Age of Fire in order to keep the fire lit (why? Idk. This is my second theory) and Kaathe wants you to become the Dark Lord in order to eat your soul and do whatever with your Lord Soul. You are, of course, a Lord now. I think Kaathe and Frampt are one, and they want your soul somehow, but that wouldn't explain the fact that if you fall for Frampt's stories, you give your soul to fire. So, I'm sticking with my first theory.

    EDIT: An addition to my first theory. I think they just simply need more time to get more scales. And thus, weave this "Chosen One" story for the Undead in order to buy more time. By forcing you to choose one of two paths, they delay the coming of the new reset. Maybe if you have enough NG's, they become dragons, and you die. Instantly. hahahahahah!


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by Shkar on Thu May 10, 2012 1:43 am

    Technically speaking, it doesn't say the fire just "appeared". The general consensus is that humans were around before they found the lord souls (how could they not be?), so they would have had to have been around after the flame was created. Part of that whole "The Flmae brought about life" thing.

    In the Age of Ancients,The world was unformed, shrouded by fog. A land of grey crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons
    But then there was Fire. And with Fire came Disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course... Light and Dark.
    Then, from the Dark, They came, and found the Souls of Lords within the flame.



    Also, this talk about the dragons and their scales has made me realize the chance From missed out on to have an event get triggered by dropping a dragon scale while fighting Seathe. Would have made for a cool unlockable if the covenants had been more in depth.
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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by Kenko on Thu May 10, 2012 8:22 am

    Helloo (im new to the forum i just couldnt keep not replying to stufffff)
    what if dark souls is a continuation of demon souls and in demon souls the guy choose the bad ending? :roll:
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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu May 10, 2012 8:26 am

    Its not. Its been confirmed the 2 have no lore realations.


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by Kenko on Thu May 10, 2012 8:35 am

    oook then sad but i think you guys are going too far but uhm.. in the begining there was only fog and the everlasting dragons. but there is flann... he never found any lord soul did he? so there is other deities who are powerful and dont need the lord soul. also is allfather loyd the pygmy? silly silly i dont realy knowwwwwww if you guys already know this or if it isnt truee i am just posting to satisfy my neeeeed D:
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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu May 10, 2012 8:38 am

    The other gods are a mystery still. Whether they were children to the current gods or came from somewhere else in unknown. Though I agree with you, I think the age of fog and dragons were the beginning.


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by Kenko on Thu May 10, 2012 8:55 am

    yess fair enough happy i think that with flame of disparity came the souls too? but nito is already full of skeletons so maybe there was something beforee hm then somehow beings were born
    but when you kill seath he gives you souls too...
    about frampt i dont think we will ever know why he befriended lord gwynn but i think the snakes are already immortal because they were alive all that time since or before the fog... ohhh they were enemies of the dragons because dragons were all big and stuff so they supported somehow the other beings???? :| and with dark there is no need to be powerful and hide tongue uh i am just ramblingggg
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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu May 10, 2012 8:59 am

    A bit. The serpents were all originally the pygmy's servants. Nito's body was made from the humans who had died during the age of fog. I actually think Nito was the literal first of the dead and the lord soul picked him out personally.


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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by Kenko on Thu May 10, 2012 9:05 am

    makess sense the pygmy had the dark soul happy sorry i am bringing all this subjects agaain i should have researched more before posting :oops:
    so hm.. everyone was immortal and when the flame came, with it came death and nito died first!
    or everyone appeared with the flames... but in my opinion the serpents were already immortal ... pygmy created them?
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    Re: The Opening, Everlasting Dragon, And Dragon Scales

    Post by Buggy Virus on Thu May 10, 2012 4:22 pm

    Shkar wrote:Technically speaking, it doesn't say the fire just "appeared". The general consensus is that humans were around before they found the lord souls (how could they not be?), so they would have had to have been around after the flame was created. Part of that whole "The Flmae brought about life" thing.

    In the Age of Ancients,The world was unformed, shrouded by fog. A land of grey crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons
    But then there was Fire. And with Fire came Disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course... Light and Dark.
    Then, from the Dark, They came, and found the Souls of Lords within the flame.



    Also, this talk about the dragons and their scales has made me realize the chance From missed out on to have an event get triggered by dropping a dragon scale while fighting Seathe. Would have made for a cool unlockable if the covenants had been more in depth.

    Like I said to Dough guy, whether humans were around or not is not the main point of the theory. More it is a theory about the hard reset caused by the dragons, and the fact that it can be done again.

    Whether humans were dead or alive before the flame goes on isn't the point, the point is that there is an Age before the Age of The Ancients.

    I'll edit the OP later.

    JoeBroski09 wrote:What about what Quelaag on youtube said? That
    serpents are unfinished or incomplete dragons? The primordial serpent
    could either mean that Frampt and or Kaathe either were there when
    everything began, or was the first serpent. I believe they were the
    first serpent, and they are of one body. Because they can't be dragons, I
    believe, according to your theory, they finally have a chance to keep
    the dragons from resetting again. By either continuing the age of fire,
    or by having a dark lord reign over everything, thus creating a new age.
    The Age of Dark. Another theory could be that they are different, and
    Frampt wants you to continue the Age of Fire in order to keep the fire
    lit (why? Idk. This is my second theory) and Kaathe wants you to become
    the Dark Lord in order to eat your soul and do whatever with your Lord
    Soul. You are, of course, a Lord now. I think Kaathe and Frampt are one,
    and they want your soul somehow, but that wouldn't explain the fact
    that if you fall for Frampt's stories, you give your soul to fire. So,
    I'm sticking with my first theory.

    EDIT: An addition to my first
    theory. I think they just simply need more time to get more scales. And
    thus, weave this "Chosen One" story for the Undead in order to buy more
    time. By forcing you to choose one of two paths, they delay the coming
    of the new reset. Maybe if you have enough NG's, they become dragons,
    and you die. Instantly. hahahahahah!

    My thoughts on the "Chosen Undead" Thing

    On the other hand, I think the primordial serpents are completely different from dragons. Because really conscious and lucid thought corrupts dragons, that's why Seath and Gaping dragon are so messed up.

    For that reason I think the serpents are completely different. I personally think they are all connected, but that is besides the point. Probably since they manifest the abyss they have been around before the age of the ancients and know about the hard resets caused by dragons. On what age to bring about I think they are in disagreement and don't have one agenda.

    And Dragons don't actively reset the world, more power beings decide to become immortal at the cost of deforming the world and becoming dragons.

    WyrmHero wrote:Clever what you say about human rising from the dead. I
    like it. In the intro when they rise they seem weak and disoriented,
    like they were dead but were being bought back to life by the Flame. I
    like your theory. It may be a connection as to why the curse of the
    undead began, because when the Flame started to fade away and Gwyn went
    to relit it, he wasnt supposed to, as it was time for humans to die and
    rest. This doesn't make sense because we have the Age of Dark but I
    think we have something solid here

    I think whether the age of dark or linking the fire happens is irrelevant towards the theory. The age of dark is caused by the energy in the original first flame being used up and not rectifying the dark soul. Just because those in the Age before the age of the ancients were able to stabilize their power when no one was using it doesn't mean that when people use it now they won't drain it.


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